LC200N or BD1N

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Bodog
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LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm

How many people, from a wide angle perspective, would really mind if spyderco changed their base steel from S30V to LC200N or BD1N? 20CV? 204P? S35VN? Really, how many people are turned off by S30V? If you're okay with S30V, would you prefer a different steel as the baseline steel?

Personally, i see all of these wonderful designs and then i see S30V as the steel and i turn away, whereas if the steel was BD1N, for the right price, I'd absolutely buy them.

Nb4 "S30V is great" without giving your actual favorite steel that would appeal to a broad audience. Way back in 2003-2004 S30V was a steel to want. There are so many now on the market that surpass S30V that i can not help but wonder why people accept it. Just look at what spyderco has done with S110V and tell me you'd still prefer S30V.

It's simply behind the times and i really believe those who say it's great would say that any steel spyderco produces is great. Maybe that's true. Are there any steels spyderco uses that appeals to you MORE than S30V? I'd bet so. So just accept your own beliefs and say them here. Is S30V what you'd want as the baseline for basically every new model spyderco produces? I say no. Strongly.
Last edited by Bodog on Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tucson Tom
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Tucson Tom » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:29 pm

I am just fine with S30V, though I did go through a period of steel snobbery where I turned my nose up at it.

I think it is clear that Spyderco is going to use a stainless for their base steel. That is a given I think for reasons that even I can see eye to eye with.
Otherwise, we would be talking Cruwear (I can already hear the mob outside as I type this sentence).

My choice would be 20CV, or CTS 204P as a bump up from S30V in this day and age.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:32 pm

Tucson Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:29 pm
I am just fine with S30V, though I did go through a period of steel snobbery where I turned my nose up at it.

I think it is clear that Spyderco is going to use a stainless for their base steel. That is a given I think for reasons that even I can see eye to eye with.
Otherwise, we would be talking Cruwear (I can already hear the mob outside as I type this sentence).

My choice would be 20CV, or CTS 204P as a bump up from S30V in this day and age.
Absolutely. Either step the steel up a notch in price and get better performance or step the steel far down in price and get slightly lower performance and greatly enhanced corrosion resistance. That's why i suggest 20CV or LC200N or BD1N. My favorite steel for edc is Vanadis 4E or M4, i didn't mention either one of those as a suggestion for a baseline steel.

I feel many great designs are falling flat simply because they use S30V as the baseline steel. Just simply throwing in S35VN would likely increase interest, right or wrong.
Last edited by Bodog on Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby p_atrick » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:35 pm

I value ease of sharpening and the keenness of the edge. We can argue about S30V being the right steel for these characteristics. But I think S30V trumps S110V in this respect. Again, I am a fairly light knife user. So it is okay for me to take a low-carbide steel that won't hold an edge for a long time. I don't need that kind of performance. So I'd be happy with BD1 because it won't take long to get it sharp, and it will last me a day of heavy-for-me use.

It seems to me that S30V strikes a good balance between cost, availability, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance, and edge retention. I can't fault a company for picking a "bland" steel if it does most things well enough.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:38 pm

p_atrick wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:35 pm
I value ease of sharpening and the keenness of the edge. We can argue about S30V being the right steel for these characteristics. But I think S30V trumps S110V in this respect. Again, I am a fairly light knife user. So it is okay for me to take a low-carbide steel that won't hold an edge for a long time. I don't need that kind of performance. So I'd be happy with BD1 because it won't take long to get it sharp, and it will last me a day of heavy-for-me use.

It seems to me that S30V strikes a good balance between cost, availability, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance, and edge retention. I can't fault a company for picking a "bland" steel if it does most things well enough.
But would that be your preference? You say no, why not stand by that? BD1N seems to be right up your alley. Why not stand by that and let it be known?
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:42 pm

204P and BD1 over S30V are both valid votes here. There's no reason to defend something if you don't feel like it. I won't defend S30V, it's not my baby. I'm a consumer letting my preference be known. I'd prefer both 204P and BD1N, pricing considered, over S30V.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby p_atrick » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:53 pm

Bodog wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:38 pm
But would that be your preference? You say no, why not stand by that? BD1N seems to be right up your alley. Why not stand by that and let it be known?
Hmmm... I don't really feel all that strongly about any steel in particular. I mean, I know what I like to buy/use, but I don't know if that means a company should change their baseline steel because of my preference. If forced to pick, I guess I would lean towards CPM154/RWL34. You get, I feel, better sharpening characteristics than S30V (I'm thinking of beginners), but better toughness/edge retention over BD1. Again, I lean toward making compromises with regards to those knife buyers who don't visit these forums and are irrationally obsessed with knives. Those are the kinds of people who keep the Spydercos of the world in business.

I've yet to use BD1N, but I was happy to hear Sal say that that steel will be making its way through the Spyderco lineup.

NOTE: edited for clarity

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby legOFwhat? » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:05 pm

I use to feel similar with vg10 when looking at potential purchases but didn't have a problem with s30v. Honestly don't have issues with either, just jaded by super steels I guess.

A bump of m390 or s90v for a baseline model would be nice!
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Sumdumguy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:15 pm

I would take LC200N as a base steel if it was feasible. It has been a fantastic steel!

I do want to try BD1N on the budget end of the spectrum.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Pelagic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:55 pm

If 204p and cruwear were available in every model that would be crazy.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby ugaarguy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:57 pm

I'm completely fine with S30V as the base steel. It's still a very modern PM steel that was developed specifically for pocket knives and small to medium fixed blades. p_atrick's next to last sentence above reflects my own opinion on the steel. VG-10 as the base steel on the Japanese made models serves the same purpose: It's a good mix of moderate price, edge holding, toughness, and ease of sharpening. These base steels serve the mass market well. The real world differences between S30V and S35VN are minuscule.

Beyond that, Spyderco offers S110V as a regular production option on almost all USA made models, and ZDP-189 as a standard option on almost Japanese models. H1 is likewise offered as a standard option on nearly all of the Japanese back locks. I think that the upcoming Native 5 LW Salt may be the start of LC200N being a standard option on USA made models. Sal has already said that the lower priced USA made models like the Manix 2 LW and the UKPK are being switched from BD1 to BD1N.

So, I'm really not concerned with the base steel as long as Spyderco keeps offering steels like S110V and ZDP-189 as regular production options. I'd like to see more 20CV / 204P, but I suspect that offering 20CV and S110V both as standard steels would split sales to the point that it wouldn't be profitable. It's frustrating to miss out on sprints and exclusives in 20CV or 204P, but at least they're offered (along with numerous other steels in those production formats). I'd also like to see the 8Cr13MoV on the value line and Byrds replaced by 14C28N. Last, I really wish that the BBS exclusive M390 and bright blue G10 combo was standard production so I could get that format direct from Spyderco through the OpFocus program, and others could get them from dealers with more mainstream business models.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby ABX2011 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:01 pm

VG-10 I try to avoid but I’m fine with S30V.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Sharp Guy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:24 pm

I haven't had the pleasure of using LC200N or BD1N. So I have no opinion of them at this point. I've been very happy with all my S30V knives. No problems with the steel at all. I think it's fine as a base steel for Spyderco's Golden & Taichung models. I have a lot of S30V at this point so I wouldn't mind if they went to something else as long as the price didn't increase much. Problem is, if they went to something else as a base steel then it's only a matter of time before people get tired of that steel and start complaining that they want something "better".

I'm curious, in what ways are LC200N & BD1N better than S30V? If the answer is only corrosion resistance and toughness then I'm not sure they would be actually be any better for my use. I haven't had any corrosion or toughness issues with S30V. It also sharpens up well and holds an edge just fine for me.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bloke » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:37 pm

If someone put three identical knives with three different blade steels all sharpened to the same level of sharpness with no way of identifying what was what on a table and gave you say 150' linear feet of cardboard to cut. I'd bet my home 99.9% of the self proclaimed steel boffins wouldn't be able to distinguish any level of performance and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ;)
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby sparky2016 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:57 pm

Bloke wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:37 pm
If someone put three identical knives with three different blade steels all sharpened to the same level of sharpness with no way of identifying what was what on a table and gave you say 150' linear feet of cardboard to cut. I'd bet my home 99.9% of the self proclaimed steel boffins wouldn't be able to distinguish any level of performance and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ;)
Start packing, because you'd lose that bet. A properly done test would show differences, as long as you have enough cardboard to reach the limits of the steels. And assuming you're talking about the steels in this thread, not some selected to fool this test.

It's in real life daily use - rather than these artificial, theoretical testing situations - that you could make the argument that people overstate the importance of the differences.
Last edited by sparky2016 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby dogrunner » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:59 pm

I'm with you Bodog. I have to really want a design that is only offered in s30v to get past that. Really nothing wrong with s30v, but I own a lot more knives than I carry and I greatly prefer Cruwear, M4, van4e, even S90v over s30v. So I hold out for knives that combine a design I want in a steel I want. I have avoided some models because they were vg10, and even though I like s30v over vg10, I still do not buy those either. I also avoid PE H1. As far as BD1N, I don't have any. I have 1 LC200n (tusk) and got it for the design more than the steel (although the steel was a good choice for the intended use). I have 1 BD1 (Reverse) and I got it because I really wanted the blade, despite the steel, which does not hold an edge very well compared to my preferred steels. We are lucky to have really great choices these days.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby dogrunner » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:04 pm

sparky2016 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:57 pm
Bloke wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:37 pm
If someone put three identical knives with three different blade steels all sharpened to the same level of sharpness with no way of identifying what was what on a table and gave you say 150' linear feet of cardboard to cut. I'd bet my home 99.9% of the self proclaimed steel boffins wouldn't be able to distinguish any level of performance and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ;)
Start packing, because you'd lose that bet. A properly done test would show differences, as long as you have enough cardboard to reach the limits of the steels. And assuming you're talking about the steels in this thread, not some selected to fool this test.

It's in real life daily use - rather than these artificial, theoretical testing situations - that you could make the argument that people overstate the importance of the differences.
In many of my uses, VG10 needs to be sharpened frequently, s30v multiple times per use, m4 holds up pretty well, Cruwear holds up well, and S90V does not need sharpening that often. I hate sharpening, and I hate stopping what I am trying to get done to sharpen, so edge holding / cutting performance wins. OTOH I don't worry about corrosion for any of the steels I just mentioned. Stall mats cutting to size, poly rope or nylon webbing where I need clean quick cuts (no sawing and no snagging), a couple of examples of regular chores.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bloke » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:17 pm

sparky2016 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:57 pm
Bloke wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:37 pm
If someone put three identical knives with three different blade steels all sharpened to the same level of sharpness with no way of identifying what was what on a table and gave you say 150' linear feet of cardboard to cut. I'd bet my home 99.9% of the self proclaimed steel boffins wouldn't be able to distinguish any level of performance and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ;)
Start packing, because you'd lose that bet. A properly done test would show differences, as long as you have enough cardboard to reach the limits of the steels. And assuming you're talking about the steels in this thread, not some selected to fool this test.

It's in real life daily use - rather than these artificial, theoretical testing situations - that you could make the argument that people overstate the importance of the differences.
Nothing to fool anyone. No laboratory. 150’ linear cardboard to cut. :)
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby knivesandbooks » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:41 pm

My picks would be
9cr18mov or BD1N for Chinese models,
Vg10 for Japanese with Hap40 as the upgrade,
CTS XHP for Golden with M4 as the upgrade,
And LC200n for Taichung models.

But, I like s30v. I like it a lot. I also like s110v.

I like 20cv/204p but I'm not trying to spend $180 for a standard black pm2.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby BornIn1500 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:10 pm

Bodog wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:17 pm
Just look at what spyderco has done with S110V and tell me you'd still prefer S30V.
Interesting. Back on Apr 28, 2015 you commented in a thread called "S30v vs s110v" and said you found s110v to perform like s30v. I mean, you didn't like either of them, but you didn't think s110v was better.
Bodog wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:08 am
I have to say that in general I'm not a huge fan of S30V. I've had several knives from several companies in the steel. I usually reprofile them to a modest 15 to 18 dps. They have all chipped out pretty easily. I'm not talking about microchipping. Chips big enough to fairly easily see with my naked eyes. I only have minimal experience with S110V but I had the same problem with it.

...........S110V hasn't been much better IME.

.............S30V and S110V haven't done it for me.

//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... 0&start=20

So I guess I don't understand what changed in the last 3 1/2 years for you to think s110v is better now.


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