Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

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Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby vivi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:11 pm

One idea I've had over the years is a lockback with an internal stop pin, the way a lot of framelocks have used them. I thought this would let you design a knife where the cutting edge goes all the way to the handle since the kick would now be optional.

Is this something Spyderco has tried?
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby ugaarguy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:14 pm

Vivi, Andrew Demko beat you to the punch with his Tri-Ad Lock. One of Spyderco's competitors mass produces many of his designs. Several of those designs have the edge coming all the way to the handle, or very nearly so, as you describe.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby kvdo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm

The Chaparral?

Image


Though granted, the edge doesn't go all the way down the blade.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby vivi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:57 pm

Looks like I have my answer, thanks.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby awa54 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:19 pm

And Sage 4 IIRC?
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby anagarika » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:46 am

Vivi,

Check Nick Shabbazz Broken Skull disassembly video.

If Spyderco does that it’s going to enhance the current line big time.

ETA: I just remembered you have Voyager. I think it also has one.
Last edited by anagarika on Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby Evil D » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:51 am

I'm not sure if the pin in the Chaparral acts as a blade stop when closed, which I think is the point Vivi is getting at here. Most back locks need the kick to stop the blade edge from hitting the lock bar/back spacer when closed, and the kick takes up edge length. If the internal stop pin also stopped the blade when closed you could do away with the kick and have more edge length. In the Chaparral there's a choil anyway, but for larger folders you could pack more edge into the handle this way.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby Rutger » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:33 am

It acts both as a blade stop when open (almost a tri-ad lock) and closed. It's a much nicer construction then a normal back lock like a Delica. Can't say enough good things about my Chappy. :)
So yeah if you made a knife without a finger choil like this you could have a full knife edge.

The picture above is the old S30V Chaparral construction. In the later versions the liners and pin placement is slightly different.
Image

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby Sharp Guy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:57 am

Rutger wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:33 am
The picture above is the old S30V Chaparral construction. In the later versions the liners and pin placement is slightly different.
For clarification, the first pic above is also the current XHP/CF construction. The pic you posted (my pic) is exclusive to the new FRN/"LW" version. As you said, the pin placement is different but both are doing the same thing.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby ugaarguy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 am

anagarika wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:46 am
Vivi,

Check Nick Shabbazz Broken Skull disassembly video.

If Spyderco does that it’s going to enhance the current line big time.

ETA: I just remembered you have Voyager. I think it also has one.
I think that would infringe on Andrew Demko's patent. Sal and Eric won't even use an Axis type lock, even though that patent has expired. I think we're more likely to see further development of the Powerlock rather than something that mimics the Tri-Ad lock.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby anagarika » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:01 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 am
anagarika wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:46 am
Vivi,

Check Nick Shabbazz Broken Skull disassembly video.

If Spyderco does that it’s going to enhance the current line big time.

ETA: I just remembered you have Voyager. I think it also has one.
I think that would infringe on Andrew Demko's patent. Sal and Eric won't even use an Axis type lock, even though that patent has expired. I think we're more likely to see further development of the Powerlock rather than something that mimics the Tri-Ad lock.
Agree.
I mean not a direct copy but enhance it with a stop pin for closed position. ;)
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby kvdo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:29 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 am
anagarika wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:46 am
Vivi,

Check Nick Shabbazz Broken Skull disassembly video.

If Spyderco does that it’s going to enhance the current line big time.

ETA: I just remembered you have Voyager. I think it also has one.
I think that would infringe on Andrew Demko's patent. Sal and Eric won't even use an Axis type lock, even though that patent has expired. I think we're more likely to see further development of the Powerlock rather than something that mimics the Tri-Ad lock.
The Triad lock works by having a stop pin set in the liners/handle of the knife, and acts as a point where the forces trying to close the blade are directed from the blade tang, to the lock bar "hook", to the stop pin, and from there the handle.

A traditional back lock transfers force from the blade tang, into the lock bar, to the lockbar's pivot, into the handle.

A stop pin mounted on the blade itself (Chaparral) can't act as a means to transfer the force of closing from the blade to the handle as a means of locking. In no way does this infringe upon the Triad lock - that's why it exists on the Chaparral already with no legal issues. I believe Vivi is just asking here for the edge grind to go further down the blade, losing the finger choil.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby kvdo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:48 am

For further clarification: See the Compression Lock. Mechanically, it's very similar to the Triad Lock in how lock up is achieved. The "lock bar" of a Triad lock and the spring liner of the Compression lock are both serving as a means to transfer force from the blade tang to a static stop pin set in the handle of the knife.

The lock bar on a typical back lock is the only element keeping the knife locked open.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby ugaarguy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:34 am

kvdo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:29 am
ugaarguy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 am
anagarika wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:46 am
Vivi,

Check Nick Shabbazz Broken Skull disassembly video.

If Spyderco does that it’s going to enhance the current line big time.

ETA: I just remembered you have Voyager. I think it also has one.
I think that would infringe on Andrew Demko's patent. Sal and Eric won't even use an Axis type lock, even though that patent has expired. I think we're more likely to see further development of the Powerlock rather than something that mimics the Tri-Ad lock.
The Triad lock works by having a stop pin set in the liners/handle of the knife, and acts as a point where the forces trying to close the blade are directed from the blade tang, to the lock bar "hook", to the stop pin, and from there the handle.

A traditional back lock transfers force from the blade tang, into the lock bar, to the lockbar's pivot, into the handle.

A stop pin mounted on the blade itself (Chaparral) can't act as a means to transfer the force of closing from the blade to the handle as a means of locking. In no way does this infringe upon the Triad lock - that's why it exists on the Chaparral already with no legal issues. I believe Vivi is just asking here for the edge grind to go further down the blade, losing the finger choil.
I'm aware of the difference. The post I quoted referred to a Cold Steel folder with the Tri-Ad lock, and suggested using that stop pin format, not using the Chaparral style stop pin. Perhaps you should read things in their context rather than getting defensive and telling me I'm wrong.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby tvenuto » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:22 pm

Perhaps you should calm down, he didn’t get defensive, merely explained things for those that might not know.

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:40 pm

I dream of a Glesser/Demko collab featuring largely Demko ergonomics (with a Glesser touch), Glesser blade shape/geometry, spyderco quality fit/finish/tolerances/action, Demko durability/pivot construction, and the Tr-Ad lock.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby navin johnson » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:50 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:40 pm
I dream of a Glesser/Demko collab featuring largely Demko ergonomics (with a Glesser touch), Glesser blade shape/geometry, spyderco quality fit/finish/tolerances/action, Demko durability/pivot construction, and the Tr-Ad lock.
Why?

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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:54 pm

navin johnson wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:50 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:40 pm
I dream of a Glesser/Demko collab featuring largely Demko ergonomics (with a Glesser touch), Glesser blade shape/geometry, spyderco quality fit/finish/tolerances/action, Demko durability/pivot construction, and the Tr-Ad lock.
Why?
Why are you asking why?

Do you not see any potential usefulness in the suggestion? You wouldn't be at all interested in what designs such a collaboration could yield?

I'm almost positive it would never happen, for obvious reasons. But that's why I called it a dream.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby Doc Dan » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:09 am

A Glesser-Demko collaboration would be pretty sweet.
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Re: Sal, have you ever tried making a lock back with an internal stop pin?

Postby sal » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:33 am

Hi Navin,

Welcome to our forum.

sal


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