The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

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kvdo
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The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby kvdo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:08 pm

Like everyone else who looked at pictures of the Brouwer, I thought to myself "wow, that's a pretty shallow carry." But hey, nothing that can't be fixed with an after-market clip, right?

Once my Brouwer arrived in the mail and I held it, I can say that I'm actually quite pleased with the default clip placement. One of my biggest gripes with the Native 5 is the awful clip location, not because of how it carries, but because it's simply terrible to hold.


Image

Brouwer vs Native 5 - Note where the dip in the clip is located



Image

Native 5 in the hand - the end of the clip is a massive hotspot



Image

Brouwer in hand - ergonomic perfection


The Brouwer absolutely carries very shallow, but is comparatively wonderful to hold compared to the Native (and many others with poor clip placement).

Should you ignore the carry height? Try to fix it with an after-market clip? That's for you to decide. For me, the Brouwer is definitely getting a lot more time in the pocket than the Native, as well as more time in the hand.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby vivi » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:14 pm

This is something I don't think gets enough attention. Clips are more complicated than how deep they carry. Making sure they line up with the ergonomics of the handle design is very important, and something Sal and co. obviously spend time considering with each model.

On a side note - are you getting a three or four finger grip on your brouwer behind the choil like in your photo?
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kvdo
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby kvdo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:26 pm

Vivi wrote: On a side note - are you getting a three or four finger grip on your brouwer behind the choil like in your photo?
Four fingers - however, my hands are tiny compared to the average adult male, so I'm not a great reference point.

Image


(I don't actually hold the Dragonfly like this, just for hand-size reference)

Image

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Sjucaveman » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:12 am

Yep my three finger dragonfly grip covers more than your four. Probably means I won't go towards the brouwer despite liking titanium frame locks.
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Rutger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:55 am

The Para 3 is similar. Everybody complains about the clip, but the standard clip is pretty comfy in the hand.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby senorsquare » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:43 am

I'd say that on just about every spydie I own or have owned the grip and ergos have been vastly improved by swapping out to a Lynch deep carry clip. So much so that I'll usually go ahead and order the replacement clip when I order the knife.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Sharp Guy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:58 am

kvdo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:08 pm
One of my biggest gripes with the Native 5 is the awful clip location, not because of how it carries, but because it's simply terrible to hold.
This just goes to show how different we all are when it comes to ergos. I actually find the Native to be quite comfortable in hand.
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby MichaelScott » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:07 am

Glad to see this discussion. I think the “deep carry” school gets far to much attention. If you live in a place where some amount of knife handle causes public issues, where our more sensitive citizens may tremble and call for help, then maybe you have a point. Or, you may just like hiding a clipped knife in your pocket.

Knives, as some maker once observed are made to be used. For that reason a clip, which isn’t a part of a knife that is necessary to its primary function, should not unnecessarily inhibit or render uncomfortable its use. Sometimes a clip position and design on a knife is fine. It is there when the knife is in hand and being used, but it is not an inhibitor or a pain. The Para Military 2 is like that for me. The One-Eyed Jack is not, so I often remove it. I moved the clips on my Rhino and Lil’ Native to the opposite side which makes them much more comfortable.

In general I don’t like deep-carry clips because I do not like digging around in my pocket to access my knife. I want at least a bit of handle there.

All this is to say, I think some knives get unnecessarily bashed because some people don’t like their clips. The absolute avalanche of negative reviews and comments about the Para 3 come immediately to mind. Now it seems to be the Brouwer’s turn. I’m not saying that people should not post their opinions but that I am glad to see comments from a different perspective.
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Baron Mind » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:37 am

I also thought the stock clip placement worked very well ergonomically on the native 5 in both grips. Hand sized be different.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby tvenuto » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:01 pm

It's a fine point, but to me, a folder has ergonomic compromises to enable carry. Not least of these compromises is a relatively narrow handle lacking major contouring. The clip should primarily allow the knife to carry well, and shouldn't compromise that to feel slightly better in hand, since you're probably not doing extended cutting with it anyway. If you plan on that, carry an original D'allara, which has the ergos of a fixed blade.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby MichaelScott » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:12 pm

tvenuto wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:01 pm
It's a fine point, but to me, a folder has ergonomic compromises to enable carry. Not least of these compromises is a relatively narrow handle lacking major contouring.
I disagree. Ergonomic in the sense of knife use relates to everything but a clip, then in a mostly negative connotation. The Rhino has a handle as thick as the Lil’ Native and is far from lacking in major contouring. And, it carries fine with the stock clip.
tvenuto wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:01 pm
The clip should primarily allow the knife to carry well, and shouldn't compromise that to feel slightly better in hand, since you're probably not doing extended cutting with it anyway. If you plan on that, carry an original D'allara, which has the ergos of a fixed blade.
The clip should primarily allow the knife to stay where it is clipped. It should not interfere with the knife’s primary purpose which is to cut things. Too often it is not a matter of “slightly” uncomfortable but one of basic irritation and pain.

So, according to your logic, if I plan to do extended cutting, whatever that means, I should plan on switching to the other extensive cutting knife I happen to carry for that purpose.

My notion is that a clip on a knife should not interfere unduly with the knife’s primary purpose which isn’t to carry well in a pocket.
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tvenuto
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby tvenuto » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:06 pm

To be clear: I’m not telling you to do anything...

And if you think your folder isn’t making ergonomic compromises to carry well I don’t know what to tell you.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Spydergirl88 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:26 pm

My knife is in my pocket for hours a day and only sees minutes of actual use. This is why deep carry matters for me. My knife has to be comfortable in pocket for me to carry it so that I can use it...otherwise it doesn't get carried so therefore it doesn't get used. Everyone has different carry needs hence why Spyderco has removable clips, repositioning of clips, and lanyard holes. And why there exists an aftermarket of deep carry clips.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby tvenuto » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:10 pm

SG88, yes, thank you.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby vivi » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:55 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:26 pm
My knife is in my pocket for hours a day and only sees minutes of actual use. This is why deep carry matters for me. My knife has to be comfortable in pocket for me to carry it so that I can use it...otherwise it doesn't get carried so therefore it doesn't get used. Everyone has different carry needs hence why Spyderco has removable clips, repositioning of clips, and lanyard holes. And why there exists an aftermarket of deep carry clips.
Yep. Some folks even prefer no clip.
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Evil D » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:09 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:26 pm
My knife is in my pocket for hours a day and only sees minutes of actual use. This is why deep carry matters for me. My knife has to be comfortable in pocket for me to carry it so that I can use it...otherwise it doesn't get carried so therefore it doesn't get used. Everyone has different carry needs hence why Spyderco has removable clips, repositioning of clips, and lanyard holes. And why there exists an aftermarket of deep carry clips.

How does deeper carry improve carry comfort? I'm honestly asking, because I've had issues with the Military jamming me in the hip when sitting down, and I've always wondered if it was due to the amount sticking out of my pocket or just the overall length.

I agree with the carry comfort vs in hand comfort, it's kind of how I approach guns and holsters, I put priority n carry comfort over hand comfort because the actual use just needs to be a secure grip and be effective (unless it's a range/fun gun that I shoot hundreds of rounds through at a time). But, what sucks is there are sometimes situations where I do use my knife a lot and that's when the clip causes problems. I've also found that I prefer a little bit of handle sticking out for my work knives because it helps to get them out while wearing gloves. There's always a compromise somewhere.
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Rutger » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:07 pm

Neither side are right or wrong.

But i do think Spyderco goes for comfort first with their clips. I haven´t found a clip that does not carry well. The reason for a deep carry clip is more about concealment than comfort/carry i think.
I personally don't need to hide my knife carry. Heck i don't think anyone around here would even know what is sticking out of my pocket. Knife carry ain't that common. And i actually like having some stick out. It makes it easier to get the knife out of the pocket. Also i can carry different color knives like a fashion item, another reason to buy more knives! :D

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby MichaelScott » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 pm

To me the only reason a clip is on a knife is to help keep it on your person and make it easier to access if you don’t carry it in a sheath. This is especially true for larger knives. If knives like the Para Military 2 or Military didn’t have clips they would be a pain to pocket carry. You would need a sheath.

Small knives like Dragonflies or Brouwers could easily be pocket carried. If they have clips those spoil the ergonomics of the handle. So, you can have good ergonomics when actually using the knife or convenient carry. Not both.
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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby Spydergirl88 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:15 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:09 pm
How does deeper carry improve carry comfort?
If I have a knife that is "riding high" it pokes me in the hip when I sit down. Deep carry is more comfortable for me when I am sitting the majority of the day (desk job). If I carry a Military in my pocket it is uncomfortable for me twofold because of the amount sticking out of the pocket and the overall handle length (smaller women's jeans pockets). However, when outside doing yard work the amount sticking out of the pocket is ideal bc it gives you something to grab onto.

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Re: The Brouwer's Clip - More than meets the eye, perfectly meets the hand

Postby vivi » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:17 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:15 pm
Evil D wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:09 pm
How does deeper carry improve carry comfort?
If I have a knife that is "riding high" it pokes me in the hip when I sit down. Deep carry is more comfortable for me when I am sitting the majority of the day (desk job). If I carry a Military in my pocket it is uncomfortable for me twofold because of the amount sticking out of the pocket and the overall handle length (smaller women's jeans pockets). However, when outside doing yard work the amount sticking out of the pocket is ideal bc it gives you something to grab onto.
I don't know if it would be practical for you Spydergirl88, but if you haven't tried carrying a Millie IWB, they always worked well for me that way.
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