Police 4 Observations

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AccountDeletedUserRequest
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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Fri May 10, 2019 12:41 am

Bill1170 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:49 pm
Vivi, in your experience have you found DLC an effective rust preventive on a carbon steel blade? I have no experience with either DLC or the more specific case of DLC over non-stainless steel.
Yes.

I've carried some DLC D2 folders and had no issues with corrosion, while I've had both traditional slipjoints and modern clipped folders in uncoated D2 rust in my pocket.

Same thing with uncoated stainless vs beadblasted stainless vs dlc stainless.

Beadblasted S30V will rust within an hour in my pocket in mid summer.

Bare S30V will rust within a week in my pocket mid summer.

DLC S30V won't rust in my pocket.

It's frustrating hearing people debate whether or not DLC aids corrosion resistance when I have the evidence in front of me year after year.

Someone can easily replicate my experiences. Take a DLC Manix XL (coated blades AND liners) and a regular Manix XL. Soak two pieces of cloth in salt water. Sandwich both folded up knives between the pieces of cloth for a day. Observe the results. Now repeat the experiment every day for a week. Then a month.

I will bet my entire knife collection the DLC Manix XL has less rust on it at every stage of the test, every single time, period.

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Wartstein
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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby Wartstein » Fri May 10, 2019 3:36 am

EDIT: Vivi and all, my original quite lengthy post and question below has become rather irrelevant, sorry!
I still won´t delete it (and so just leave an empty post), since it has been up long enough for more or less people to read, and it would be strange if it just "disappeared"
(Why is my following question irrelevant? Basically I did assume, that the "first finger placement" of Police 4 LW, Endura and Endela would have about the same dimensions. Now I calculated the respective sizes of the finger placements by measuring them against the opening hole sizes on the pics (the respective sizes of the Police, Endura and Endela opening holes are given):
And I was wrong! The "first finger placement" of the Police 4 LW has NOT the same dimensions as the ones on Endela and Endura, which withdraws the basis for my question below)
So, sorry for waisting a lot of space... :o



Vivi, I´d have a grip-question concerning the Police (LW), that´s too minor to start a dedicated thread, so I may ask here:

- I´ve noticed, that you (and others) don´t like the Endura-(and Delica) ergos, mainly cause the first finger placement is quite big for one finger, but still too small for two... correct?
- But you do like the Police ergos
- Now most likely the handle (and first finger placement) of the upcoming Police LW will be dimensioned after the handle of the G10 Police
- Now: Comparing depictions of Police LW, Endura and Endela (SEE ATTACHED PICS: from top to bottom: Police lw, Endura, Endela): The dimensions of that first finger placement look to be quite the same (sure one can´t tell exactly just from the pics. I could measure the handles, blades and first finger placement on the pics, and by taking the specs from the homepage somehow calculate the dimensions of each first finger placement. But no time for that..)
- If that is: Could that mean, that in fact not the dimension of the first finger placement of the Endura causes the problems for some, but rather the "pronges" / "tips" / "ridges" (whatever the hell the english word for it might be) BETWEEN all the finger grooves (which the Police DOES NOT have?)
- (That would consequently mean, that the Endela should be a better fit for those who don´t like the Endura ergos, since the Endela grooves are less pronounced)

Or, to put it maybe simpler ;) : Did you ever actually compare the size of the first finger placement between Endura and Police (that of course only would mean something concerning my question, if the first finger placement of the Police LW has the same dimension as the one on the Police G10. That will most likely be the case, but I can´t know it for sure now of course).
Attachments
Police.png
Endura.png
Endela.png
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

Bill1170
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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby Bill1170 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:12 am

Thank you, Vivi, for thoroughly answering my question. Given your real-world experience with DLC and rust, a DLC’d version of the K390 Police 4 sounds like a very desirable upgrade! Obviously, the liners would also need to either be similarly coated or made of more corrosion resistant alloy than they are now.

Northglenn500
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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby Northglenn500 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:39 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:10 am
marty_bill_ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 2:38 am
After seeing all this I am thinking about sending my P4 off to get cerakoted. Just the internal parts. Liners, backlock and what not. Is this a viable solution? I am not so interested in getting the blade done as patina does not bother me. But would definitely consider getting it done as well. And a black blade on that P4 would look kickass.

I am hoping that future K390 models are DLC coated. A DLC K390 Police LW with Navy FRN would be great!
THIS!! A navy / LAPD blue handle with a DLC blade would be the ultimate Police knife.

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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Fri May 10, 2019 1:18 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:36 am
EDIT: Vivi and all, my original quite lengthy post and question below has become rather irrelevant, sorry!
I still won´t delete it (and so just leave an empty post), since it has been up long enough for more or less people to read, and it would be strange if it just "disappeared"
(Why is my following question irrelevant? Basically I did assume, that the "first finger placement" of Police 4 LW, Endura and Endela would have about the same dimensions. Now I calculated the respective sizes of the finger placements by measuring them against the opening hole sizes on the pics (the respective sizes of the Police, Endura and Endela opening holes are given):
And I was wrong! The "first finger placement" of the Police 4 LW has NOT the same dimensions as the ones on Endela and Endura, which withdraws the basis for my question below)
So, sorry for waisting a lot of space... :o



Vivi, I´d have a grip-question concerning the Police (LW), that´s too minor to start a dedicated thread, so I may ask here:

- I´ve noticed, that you (and others) don´t like the Endura-(and Delica) ergos, mainly cause the first finger placement is quite big for one finger, but still too small for two... correct?
- But you do like the Police ergos
- Now most likely the handle (and first finger placement) of the upcoming Police LW will be dimensioned after the handle of the G10 Police
- Now: Comparing depictions of Police LW, Endura and Endela (SEE ATTACHED PICS: from top to bottom: Police lw, Endura, Endela): The dimensions of that first finger placement look to be quite the same (sure one can´t tell exactly just from the pics. I could measure the handles, blades and first finger placement on the pics, and by taking the specs from the homepage somehow calculate the dimensions of each first finger placement. But no time for that..)
- If that is: Could that mean, that in fact not the dimension of the first finger placement of the Endura causes the problems for some, but rather the "pronges" / "tips" / "ridges" (whatever the hell the english word for it might be) BETWEEN all the finger grooves (which the Police DOES NOT have?)
- (That would consequently mean, that the Endela should be a better fit for those who don´t like the Endura ergos, since the Endela grooves are less pronounced)

Or, to put it maybe simpler ;) : Did you ever actually compare the size of the first finger placement between Endura and Police (that of course only would mean something concerning my question, if the first finger placement of the Police LW has the same dimension as the one on the Police G10. That will most likely be the case, but I can´t know it for sure now of course).
The Police is balanced so that when I grip it with one finger in the first groove behind the index choil, it is perfectly balanced.

The Endura is balanced so that when I grip it with one finger in the first groove it feels too blade heavy.

Compare this image of a Stretch and Endura. Imagine gripping each knife. You hold the Stretch behind the index choil, and the Endura with one finger in the first groove. Look at how far your hand is from the cutting edge on the Endura VS Stretch:

Image

Same thing with the Endura vs Police 3 (Which had points between the grooves like an Endura)

Image

The grip on the Endura is further back than the Police is.

This is why I dislike the Endura 4. My hand has two options, and they both feel bad.

I can try to cram both my index and middle finger in the first groove and my hand feels cramped and now I have no where comfortable to put my thumb, because the thumb ramp is too close.

Or I can grip further back with one finger in the first groove, and the handle feels nice and my thumb has space to properly extend and rest on the ramp. But now the knife feels like it wants to fall out of my hand because it feels too blade heavy, and I'm about an inch and a half from the start of the blade, which is terrible for leverage.

I dislike the Delica because it forces me into the first scenario.

On the Police, look at the distance between the first finger groove (not the index choil) and the thumb ramp. Maybe an inch, or a bit more? That's comfortable.

Look at the distance between where the index finger rests on a Delica, and the thumb ramp. The thumb ramp essentially starts where the first finger groove ends. How is that comfortable for anyone? My thumb is incredibly cramped if I try to use thumb ramps on designs with such little space between the index finger placement and thumb ramp.

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Wartstein
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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby Wartstein » Sat May 11, 2019 5:27 am

Vivi wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:18 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:36 am
Thanks a lot for taking the time to do that very detailled and informative reply! Now I understand exactly what you mean.

I actually took the three knife-models in your first pic (Delica, Stretch 1, Endura, which - unlike the Police - I all own in more than one version) and tried to replicate what you describe in order to find out if I´d feel the same.

And, to be honest, I do not - or at least just partly. I am sure that is due to our hands beeing different most likely (so different "hands- and finger-geometry".. ;) ).

What I 100% can comprehend:
- IF you grip the Endura with just one finger in the first, large "finger placement-groove" it does not feel well balanced at all for most cutting tasks (but for a few it´s quite ok, for example cutting easy to cut stuff against a cutting board with the tip area. But that´s not specific for the ENDURA of course, for such a task you would grab any knife further back probably)
- That said: For my hands and fingers it´s no problem to put two fingers in the first finger placement, ALTHOUGH the midddle finger is resting partly on the "tip" between first and second "finger groove" (even more so on the Delica). But that happens to be not uncomfortable at all just for me...

Now for the thumb-ramp-thing:
It´s true, if you asked me to really focus on that issue, when grabbing each knife in a regular grip (not choked up) and put the thumb on the ramp:
I´d say that is a bit more comfortable on the Stretch, as the thumb is more extended on the Stretch compared to Endura/Delica, but really not by much and no problem or uncomfortable on Endura or Delica at all (in a way it even feels MORE secure/locked in on those two models). I guess, my thumb must be just a lot shorter than yours. Though I have to say: When thinking about it, I almost never put my thumb on the ramp of any Spyderco when using a it for a prolonged period of time, but much more to the side of the blade, partly in the opening hole and/or pressing the thumb backwards against the front end of the scales (and sometimes with the index finger not on the grip, but on the spine). So maybe IF the thumb-ramp-grip would be my main grip, the Endura/Delica would get uncomcfortable over time, and not so the Stretch... don´t know.

I´ve attached three (unbelievable crappy, but in that case it´s not about photo-quallity) pics of my hand holding Stretch/Delica/Endura with the thumb on the ramp.

Thanks again for the discussion!
Attachments
20190511_124603.jpg
20190511_124516.jpg
20190511_124505.jpg
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:09 pm

Wartstein, thanks for the pictures. The Delica and Endura 4 definitely suit your hand better. If I extend my thumb that much, the rest of my fingers won't be able to line up with the finger grooves as well as yours.

Over in this thread I posted about my experiences with the liners rusting in the P4 and P3:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84857

Looking at the photos you can see Spyderco cut out a lot more of the liner material. Makes sense the P4 weighs so luch less.

Police 3 liners:

Image


Police 4 liners:

Image

AccountDeletedUserRequest
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Re: Police 4 Observations

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:52 pm

Some updates....

Here's a thread on the liners rusting - https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84857&start=80

What I did was take the knife down, sand out the rust, then soak the blade and liners in white vinegar.

The blade didn't really react, it just got a tiny bit cloudier overall. The liners readily reacted and developed a dull gray patina.

Image


I put the knife back together and after carrying it for a week the liners have developed a green color, but zero observable rust:

Image

Image


I will be either updating this thread or making a P4 LW Observations thread later this week :)


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