Are lightweight versions hindering supersteel potenial?

[Sharp Guy]

I sometimes get a kick how some feel about the addition of liners in FRN knives. Don't get me wrong, I also appreciate really light knives and I get where they're coming from. But sometimes I also like a little bit of added heft and rigidity that liners can provide. I don't have an Endura but I'm sure the liners do increase the weight. But at 3.6 oz it's hardly a heavy knife for it's size. It's actually a little lighter than the PM2 (3.9 oz) and don't see anyone mentioning how heavy that is. In smaller knives I think the weight the liners add is negligible.

Salt 1 (no liners) 2.0 oz (actually 1.932 oz by my scale)

Delica 4 FRN (liners) 2.4 oz depending on where you look (actually 2.312 & 2.332 on my scale)

Native 4 LW (no liners) 2.5 oz (actually 2.460 & 2.417 on my scale)

A comment was also made regarding liners changing the balance point of a knife. I'm sure having liners in the handle makes a difference but after handling the knives listed above I'm pretty sure Spyderco takes balance into consideration when designing the knives. On all 3 knives listed above the balance point is just behind the pivot. The balance point on the Delica is a little farther back yet it still feels very balanced in hand. All 3 knives felt equally balanced and none felt nose heavy.

[awa54]

Another question is, does spyderco overbuild their knives?

Yet another question is, is strength really a weakness?

It seems to be a common theme in the knife community, especially in bladeforums, that strongly built folders are unnecessary. I understand that completely. But it seems to be to the point (at times) that if a newer much stronger material was discovered, it would be rejected by the majority. I may be one of the only voices reminding spyderco that there are some people who value strong, rugged folders. But I'm absolutely fine with that. At the same time, I know I'm not the only one, so I like seeing such people have a voice.

At some point the pursuit of strength in a knife yields no additional return, the exact point is up to the designer and the buyer to determine. The more tuned toward slicing a blade is the less strength the lock and handle need to adequately support that blade, many Spyderco designs are slicers.

My personal taste runs toward knives that can do a lot of work, but don't weigh more than 5 oz. and still fit in RFP without totally taking it over. The original M2 borders on too heavy for EDC in my world and I tend to avoid solid metal handle scales with a few notable exceptions (all time favorite UKPK is the Ti version).

While I do like the feel of G10 better than FRN or FRCP, often the cost and weight savings of the LW version are even more attractive. Honestly the only LW versions of any Spyderco I feel have inadequate rigidity are the FRN Slipits (Squeak, Urban, Pingo and DKPK from Italy... and especially the Golden made UKPK), I don't worry that they'll break, but the G10 (and Ti) versions feel much more solid in use.

[MichaelScott]

…not very significant except under special circumstances.

As I said.

[ferider]

"Are lightweight versions hindering supersteel potenial?"

Probably not in practice. But for me it's a comfort thing, and as I don't mind the additional weight, my Maxamet Manix 2 has solid steel liners now.



And my CPM Cru-wear Manix got an additional standoff :)



Cheers,

Roland.

[Pelagic]

That isn't a good analogy.

Just FYI: Analogies exist to highlight underlying concepts, not to insist the subject matter is identical or directly applies. The more you know.

[dsvirsky]

That isn't a good analogy.

Just FYI: Analogies exist to highlight underlying concepts, not to insist the subject matter is identical or directly applies. The more you know.

Apples are still apples and oranges are still oranges, not apples. It is well documented that seatbelts increase one's chances of survival in a car crash. Can you provide documentation showing liners improve the function and/or safety of FRN knife handles? Or are we just dealing with more anecdotal evidence?

[vivi]

Some perspective:
Rhino: 2.3 oz
Para 3: 3.4 oz
One-Eyed Jack: 3.7 oz
Para Military 2: 3.9 oz
iphone 6: 4.5 oz
average pair of jeans: 16 oz

Discussions of why lightweight knives are superior in terms of carry weight to heavy (i.e. Para Military 2 or One-Eyed Jack) are interesting but not very significant except under special circumstances. Some people carry cocked-and-locked .45s and double stack 9mm without much complaint. I don’t see how two or three ounces in one’s knife choice makes much difference.

Largely depends on what you do, too. Today I jogged up some mountain trails, did some rock climbing until the sunset, then jogged back down with my headlamp. I'd absolutely feel the difference between the 3oz knife I clipped to my waistband and the 5oz knife I have clipped to my work pants now.

[vivi]

That isn't a good analogy.

Just FYI: Analogies exist to highlight underlying concepts, not to insist the subject matter is identical or directly applies. The more you know.

There's no need to be condescending.

What can an Endura 4 with liners do that my Pacific Salt with no liners cannot?

If you prefer the heft, or like the peace of mind, more power to you.

But you're drawing a comparison with something documented to save lives. What do you think liners do to make the knife so much safer and rugged?

[vivi]

"Are lightweight versions hindering supersteel potenial?"

Probably not in practice. But for me it's a comfort thing, and as I don't mind the additional weight, my Maxamet Manix 2 has solid steel liners now.



And my CPM Cru-wear Manix got an additional standoff :)



Cheers,

Roland.

Those look really nice! Have you weighed them? I'm curious how the weight compares with the G10 versions.

[Sharp Guy]

Largely depends on what you do, too.

Absolutely. What knife I carry also depends on what I'm wearing too. Anytime I'm wearing athletic shorts or even some light cargo and dress shorts I have I always choose a light weight knife. I love carrying a Manix 2 LW IWB when we go on walks or I ride my bike. When wearing light weight dress shorts I usually choose a Chapparal LW, UKPK LW, or sometimes a Delica or Native 5 LW. I hate it when heavy knives pull on my pocket. Sometimes I'll just put a FRN Dragonfly in the bottom of my pocket without the clip.

[vivi]

Largely depends on what you do, too.

Absolutely. What I knife I carry also depends on what I'm wearing too. Anytime I'm wearing athletic shorts or even some light cargo and dress shorts I have I always choose a light weight knife. I love carrying a Manix 2 LW IWB when we go on walks or I ride my bike. When wearing light weight dress shorts I usually choose a Chapparal LW, UKPK LW, or sometimes a Delica or Native 5 LW. I hate it when heavy knives pull on my pocket. Sometimes I'll just put a FRN Dragonfly in the bottom of my pocket without the clip.

Exactly. If I'm in running shorts, I never carry a knife heavier than 3oz. If I'm in carthartts with my thick belt I don't care nearly as much, unless I know I'll be particularly active that day.

Either way the lighter a knife is, the easier it is to carry another

[MichaelScott]

I admit that there will be circumstances in which ounces count. But, for most people most of the time an extra two or three ounces are not important. I am an example.

When I go out in summer in addition to my clothing I will typically carry a wallet, two knives (which indeed may be light weight), keys, key carabiner, small multi tool, AAA flashlight, a 9mm single stack pistol, kydex holster and extra magazine. At the minimum. An extra two or three ounces will hardly be noticed.

I could leave the Rhino at home and take the One-Eyed Jack. That would add all of 1.4 oz.

I like light weight knives. All mine are under four ounces. But I think the concern about “heavy” folding knives is a bit overblown unless someone likes actual heavy ones, say half a pound or more.

[vivi]

For the average person doing average things, I agree, an ounce isn't a big deal.

Sometimes in the summer I'll cross the country on my road bike, doing 100-200 miles per day. Ounces definitely matter during times like that!

[Tucson Tom]

Another question is, does spyderco overbuild their knives?

More is always better.

Or as a fellow I know likes to say, "More than enough is only marginally sufficient"

[Sharp Guy]

More is always better.

Except when it's too much :cool:

[Pelagic]

Vivi, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention to be short with you, only keep the message short.

[MichaelScott]

I think you are saying that weight is not an issue for you but strength is. And, in terms of folding knives you turn to another brand when it is clear that a task may require extreme strength for a folder. Consequently, you do not want discussions that criticize weight, if that correlates with strength (I.e., steel liners), to cause builders or manufacturers to compromise strength by reducing weight.

Did I get that right?

[Pelagic]

In short, no, Michael. I am talking about a concept. I do not "turn to another brand" every time I....

Ya know what, I'm deleting that post. I don't have time to explain.

I am slowly learning why 99% of the time these threads are just a monotonous flow of agreement.

[Surfingringo]

One of the issues is that we don’t have much good data that indicates reducing weight compromises strength in any way that actually affects performance. Regarding lateral pressure, I believe the blade of most Spydercos will fail long before either handle material so I’m not sure what functional strength advantage g10 offers over frn.

Regarding the op’s question, I would offer a definitive NO. I use frn knives almost exclusively for all my heaviest and hardest work and the handle material in NO way hinders the steel’s full potential. That’s my opinion based on my experience anyway.

[MichaelScott]

In short, no, Michael. I am talking about a concept. I do not "turn to another brand" every time I....

Ya know what, I'm deleting that post. I don't have time to explain.

I am slowly learning why 99% of the time these threads are just a monotonous flow of agreement.

I was not necessarily agreeing with you, just restating what I understood to see if I read your post correctly.

I am pretty certain that is what you said. Can’t tell now since the original is gone.

I would also note that if one makes a post in a discussion forum one should expect discussion, not all of which will be a “monotonous flow of agreement.”

I spent a number of years steaming the Atlantic and Pacific some of that working on the weather decks in all weathers sometimes relying on a knife to deal with various lines and materials. Most of the boatswains mates, and the rest of us with that duty carried fixed blades for strength, efficiency and safety.