Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

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lonerider1013
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Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#1

Post by lonerider1013 »

Regarding blade length, stumbled on this from the American Knife and Tool Institute: "Where a statute, regulation or ordinance refers to knife blade length,the measurement shall be the straight line extending from the tip of the blade to the forward-most aspect of the hilt or handle."
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My question is, what about knives with a forward finger groove, 50/50 finger groove, or that are held as if there is a finger groove? Such as the para3, the byrd caracara and meadowlark, and even the delica and endura, which lack a finger groove but which I (and no doubt others) often hold as if they have one?
In these cases a portion of the base of the "blade" may actually be part of the handle, and certainly has no cutting edge on that part. I always measure from where the edge starts -- or more properly, where my normal grip ends. Why don't other folk do this? For instance, if the concern is a longer blade enables greater penetration in a violent use of the knife, this is a nonissue where the hand is over a blunt part of the "blade" unless your finger is going to cut through the target.
It should be a moot point as pocket knives are usually tools anyway, not weapons, but just curious why this sort of measurement is used? Or does it really come down to what is blade and what is handle (i.e., a portion of the blade that actually functions as extension of handle is not functionally "blade", even though it is part of the blade in terms of a unit as distinct from the handle scales. I imagine in that sense it's like asking is the chamber of a gun included in barrel length?)
I've never in all my life been hassled for a knife, but as a responsible knife owner am obviously interested that any restrictions be interpreted as narrowly as possible to infringe on me and others the least and, live in a state that has some pretty asinine laws on other things (like firearms). So I'm wondering why more folk don't measure that way?
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#2

Post by vivi »

Whether it's sharpened or not, a choil is still part of the blade. The laws say blade, not specifying it has to be sharp. Some daggers / bayonets only have a point and no edge. They still have a blade.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#3

Post by Bloke »

I think it all gets a little complicated with choils, sharpened, unsharpened etc. and being a simpleton I consider the blade length to be from where the scales/handle ends to the tip of the blade. :)
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#4

Post by Sjucaveman »

Vivi is correct, sharpened or not the metal forward of the handle scales is blade.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#5

Post by The Deacon »

Probably because it's the simplest and most unambiguous way to measure a blade. Otherwise things like whether or not to include a Spanish notch/sharpening choil, whether a 3" long double edged blade is a 3" knife or a 6" one, and whether to measure edge length as a straight line between the tip and some arbitrary point or follow the curve of the blade.

FWIW, Spyderco does provide both edge length and blade length measurements for its knives.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#6

Post by curlyhairedboy »

my state happens to say "the edged portion" of the blade when talking about length restrictions. So at least that's clear, but I think a lot of these restrictions equate a short blade with shallower stab potential.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#7

Post by lonerider1013 »

I guess that makes sense, inasmuch as if you need to look at the features of a knife and make an individual determination, chances are most non-knife folk would get it wrong lol.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#8

Post by Evil D »

The law says the choil is part of the blade to prevent people from making what would essentially be swords that could literally have feet worth of reach but technically only have a 3 inch "blade" if most of it isn't ground into an edge.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#9

Post by FK »

It all depends upon how the state law is written.

Mine defines blade length as Edged Portion (sharpened edge), not overall.

One can carry any knife with limit at 4 inches however, fisherman, hunters, and trappers can carry whatever they like as long as it is used for fishing, hunting, or trapping

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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#10

Post by Woodpuppy »

More useless laws. Criminalize violent behavior, not tools based on “scary” features. When did politicians permanently wet their pants and clutch their pearls?
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#11

Post by lonerider1013 »

Woodpuppy wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:13 pm
More useless laws. ..
That's why I asked. I normally edc a small knife (delica size or so) but my recent endura purchase has me wondering about more medium sized ones, like the Caly or Military or what have you. And that made me ponder the issue of blade length. I don't *need* a bigger knife, but it's be nice to be able to carry one if I want. I'm not gonna drop $180 bucks on a military if I can't carry it outside the house or the woods.
Personally I don't understand knife restrictions at all but then I'm not a politician and I am not scared of knives and other tools.

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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#12

Post by MichaelScott »

lonerider1013 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:07 am
Woodpuppy wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:13 pm
More useless laws. ..
That's why I asked. I normally edc a small knife (delica size or so) but my recent endura purchase has me wondering about more medium sized ones, like the Caly or Military or what have you. And that made me ponder the issue of blade length. I don't *need* a bigger knife, but it's be nice to be able to carry one if I want. I'm not gonna drop $180 bucks on a military if I can't carry it outside the house or the woods.
Personally I don't understand knife restrictions at all but then I'm not a politician and I am not scared of knives and other tools.

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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#13

Post by lonerider1013 »

MichaelScott wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:31 am

Consult your state statutes. And, any state you may be visiting. Doesn’t matter what your opinion may be, the law trumps that.
Fair enough except whenever I do an internet search I get nonsense with no specifics. Anyone know a flat out blade length limit for New Jersey?

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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#14

Post by FK »

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/new-jersey/

https://knifeup.com/new-jersey-knife-laws/


Good luck with interpretation.

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Last edited by FK on Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#15

Post by lonerider1013 »

Thanks but i already read that. The only blade measurement mentioned anywhere is a size limit on knives that may be sold to minors which is irrelevant at my age lol.
(EDIT: The second link says no restrictions on carry, just that if you have a switchblade or whatever you can get in trouble.) So...
I guess I could reasonably edc a knife like the Endura and if anyone asks, point out there is no numerical blade length limit for carry,
Thanks.
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Last edited by lonerider1013 on Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#16

Post by FK »

New Jersey laws revolve around "intent" when in court.
The prosecution must prove intent to harm etc. This could include simple small 2" pocket knife.
It is generally understood at 5" blade and 10" overall for general carry knives.
However, if you tell the LEO "self defense" you are most likely in trouble.
Hunting and fishing with a license in your possession is the best way to insure genuine good "intent".

Unfortunately another state with very difficult to interpret writing of laws.

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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#17

Post by lonerider1013 »

No intent of self defense with a knife here. I'd rather use a stick if I had to. I know I'm not trained to use a knife as a weapon! (and I wouldn't tell a police officer that for obvious reasons as you said). However I use it as a tool and would like to have the option of carrying slightly longer ones if I want. Good to know that;s not an issue... i just wanted to make sure that something like an endura wasn't too long, or shouldn't be.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#18

Post by vivi »

Unpopular opinion, but how many times have you been stopped and searched by an LEO? I can count the number of times I have on no hands, and I "bend the rules" from time to time.....like stealth camping at park on bike tours.....

Anyways, this seems pretty cut and dry:
The phrase “lawful purpose” was challenged in State v. Blaine, when Mr. Blaine was discovered carrying a folding knife with a 4 inch blade. The Court reasoned that because the knife carried by Mr. Blaine was not a gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk or stiletto, those knives specifically mentioned by new Jersey statute as weapons, the defendant may escape a guilty finding, if the state cannot prove that he carried the knife for an unlawful purpose. As such, because there was no proof that Mr. Blaine did not carry the knife for a lawful purpose, he could not be found guilty of carrying an illegal weapon. The Blaine Court cited State v. Lee, in which the legislature’s intent, when enacting the law prohibiting the carrying of certain knives, was examined.
So basically it's the same as most states. Carry what you want outside of switchblades, double edged knives etc., and don't tell anyone you carry for self defense because that is illegal (But carrying five handguns for sd isn't, lol....).

The Endura is a regular sized pocket knife. I'd be surprised if anyone cared that you carried it. Very few people, including cops, have any idea what local knife laws are.
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#19

Post by lonerider1013 »

Thanks. The irony is I would never think of hurting someone with a knife. The fact that I even have to ask these questions is tantamount to how wacked out the views of a handful of people and rules can be... glad to see the actual laws are not as mucked up as the perceptions...
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Re: Question on blade length and why folks measure as they do...

#20

Post by MichaelScott »

In Colorado the knife carried concealed has to have a blade length less than 3.5”. I don’t know if a clip visible renders a knife unconcealed. If police see that you have a knife during a stop, or otherwise, and they bother to inspect it one could be cited for carrying a concealed weapon if the blade is over 3.5”.
Intent is not mentioned in the statute.

So, depends on whether that matters to you or not. To be certain find the actual statutes (available in line) not some web site’s interpretation.
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