St. Nick's Knives Exclusive Para 3

[BIGSTRETCH]

Larrin shows in a list here from the article.

Basically Steels at the top of the list are more stainless/less reactive then steels at the bottom. However, he has them organized by there free Chromium in solution not tied up in carbides after heat treatment, so near the bottom middle there may be some caveats.

In the chart, he shows:
Austenizing temp, Chromium, molybdenum and PREN

The Austenizing temp is important because it is afactor in how much alloy is in solution.

Using the chromium percentage, Larrin shows how much Chromium is in solution to create an oxide film to passivate reactivity.

The Molybdenum is not just purely for Carbide formation and hardenbility. It also helps with pitting, he shows how much molybdenum is in solution.

The PREN stands for Pitting Resistance Equivalent Number. You'll notice that Vanadis 4 (4V is a copy) has more Cr in solution then M4 but less PREN due to the lower amount of Molybdenum in solution.

That is a very interesting list. If a steel is very reactive but has a high PREN, does it mean that it will discolor easily but resist the type of rust that could be structurally damaging or irremovable?

Thx

[Rutger]

That is a very interesting list. If a steel is very reactive but has a high PREN, does it mean that it will discolor easily but resist the type of rust that could be structurally damaging or irremovable?

Thx

No.

"You can see that the PREN values are high for some of them due to high Mo content, though as discussed earlier in this article that likely doesn’t mean “stainless” levels of corrosion resistance as Mo enhances the existing Cr passive layer rather than replaces it. The ranking by Cr content in solution is probably more accurate for predicting the relative corrosion resistance of each."

Give the article a read.

[Hgwxx7]

Apologies in advance for a possibly obtuse question, but where would M390 fall in that chart? Is it similar to K390? I'm leaning toward this Para 3 sprint over the BBS M390, and trying to glean as much as possible about the difference besides one is red and the other blue.

[Joey]

M390 is a very corrosion resistant steel. This 4V is said to be closer to REX45/M4/52100 in corrosion resistance. So to say the two sprints are similar aside from the color is probably incorrect as far as I understand.

[Rutger]

Apologies in advance for a possibly obtuse question, but where would M390 fall in that chart? Is it similar to K390? I'm leaning toward this Para 3 sprint over the BBS M390, and trying to glean as much as possible about the difference besides one is red and the other blue.

M390 is very corrosion resistant and would be top of the chart there with around 13-14% free chromium. But it won't have the toughness level of 4v. This 4v sprint run has a DLC coating so rust won't be much of an issue. Both are amazing steels.

[Sharp Guy]

Kristi at Spyderco has quoted that DLC had no effect on rusting for the carbon steels. That it will rust from the inside out if not properly maintained. Seems to be a major misconception.

Hmm...the post in the thread linked below is from back in 2013. So Spyderco's view of this subject may have changed. But, at least back then, Michael Janich believed that DLC increased corrosion resistance.

viewtopic.php?p=895794#p895794

I've been curious about this topic. So I just did a web search. It seams that others believe that DLC improves corrosion resistance. I honestly don't know if it actually does or not. From what I've been reading it's definitely some interesting stuff. Gonna read some more later. :)

[Hgwxx7]

M390 is a very corrosion resistant steel. This 4V is said to be closer to REX45/M4/52100 in corrosion resistance. So to say the two sprints are similar aside from the color is probably incorrect as far as I understand.

I was trying to flesh out how they are dissimilar for that very reason! Wasn't trying to imply they are similar aside from color.

I recently picked up the Para 3 REX 45 sprint and I'm really digging it. I have been itching to try the M390 BBS Para 3 as well, which is similarly priced to St. Nicks, so, I'm just trying to see which would be the best use of my funds. Food for thought if 4V and REX 45 are comparable.

[Rutger]

Apologies in advance for a possibly obtuse question, but where would M390 fall in that chart? Is it similar to K390? I'm leaning toward this Para 3 sprint over the BBS M390, and trying to glean as much as possible about the difference besides one is red and the other blue.

M390 is very corrosion resistant and would be top of the chart there with around 13-14% free chromium. But it won't have the toughness level of 4v. This 4v sprint run has a DLC coating so rust won't be much of an issue. Both are amazing steels.

Kristi at Spyderco has quoted that DLC had no effect on rusting for the carbon steels. That it will rust from the inside out if not properly maintained. Seems to be a major misconception.

It's just like paint on a car. Sure it can rust if the paint is damaged. But it does help prevent it. On the knife the edge is exposed, but just maintain it with some stropping and sharpening once in a while. Keep the pivot oiled and you should be fine. The 4v can rust but it does have chromium in it so it is not as bad as plain carbon steel.

[Mordhaus]

Slapped some 52100 at 60 hrc on a 36 grit belt to compare to 4v at 67hrc. I dipped them both in tap water and watched the fun.



Looks like I'm wrong, the 4v is not as reactive as 52100

In 5 min the 52100 start reacting.


The 4v had less reaction.



Still, I'd be more watchful with 4v then other tool steels.
It's alot more reactive then M4, 3V, Cruwear, PD-1 and Z-Wear, CPM D2 and Psf27

Am I missing something? It has 5% chromium, which is more than M4/Rex45/Hap40 (which range from 4%-4.75% cr). It should theoretically be more resistant than those. D2 is just shy of stainless level, so that is obviously much higher resistance. Cruwear/3V/PD-1/Z-Wear come in around 7.5%-7.75% cr so they should be slightly more resistant.

Unless there is a chemical reaction to some other material in the steel that I am unaware of, this should be easily comparable to any of the common semi stainless steels except for D2 and PSF27. Basically in the middle, leaning towards the M4 family.

Larrin shows in a list here from the article.

Basically Steels at the top of the list are more stainless/less reactive then steels at the bottom. However, he has them organized by there free Chromium in solution not tied up in carbides after heat treatment, so near the bottom middle there may be some caveats.

In the chart, he shows:
Austenizing temp, Chromium, molybdenum and PREN

The Austenizing temp is important because it is afactor in how much alloy is in solution.

Using the chromium percentage, Larrin shows how much Chromium is in solution to create an oxide film to passivate reactivity.

The Molybdenum is not just purely for Carbide formation and hardenbility. It also helps with pitting, he shows how much molybdenum is in solution.

The PREN stands for Pitting Resistance Equivalent Number. You'll notice that Vanadis 4 (4V is a copy) has more Cr in solution then M4 but less PREN due to the lower amount of Molybdenum in solution.



The article is really great and covers alot of details.

It's so awesome that we have a legit Metallurgist in the knife community sharing.

Subscribe to the website great great information there and more coming.

The next article is about Nitrogen steels and how Nitrogen works in the steel.

So exciting!

I read the article. Since I am not a metallurgist, I took away the most information from the following line: "The ranking by Cr content in solution is probably more accurate for predicting the relative corrosion resistance of each."

So if we don't have the other information (temps etc) we can guesstimate that, at worst, 4V is comparable to the M4 family. Not significantly worse as was said earlier. PREN only seems to count for pitting and crevice corrosion when exposed to Chloride, IE Saltwater (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitting_r ... ent_number). I wouldn't dare expose tool steel to saltwater unless I had to, even then I would take all steps to make sure the blade was cleaned and oiled after exposure (definitely oiled before).

Now I know you have done work with 4V on your custom knives so you have field experience, but I also think you have been pushing your 4V to the max RC. The article inferred that the higher RC is going to be less resistant to corrosion because apparently the higher you go in RC the less Cr is available in solution. It may be that the custom blades you have are not going to exhibit the same response as those of the one on this upcoming para3.

Obviously I am just making estimates based off numbers. I don't have your experience with the 'real steel' yet. I might be completely wrong, but I would think that it should definitely be somewhat resistant to average exposure to non-saltwater and humidity, at least to m4 levels as I said, albeit m4 should technically be more resistant to saltwater depending on treatment.

[Deadboxhero]

Slapped some 52100 at 60 hrc on a 36 grit belt to compare to 4v at 67hrc. I dipped them both in tap water and watched the fun.



Looks like I'm wrong, the 4v is not as reactive as 52100

In 5 min the 52100 start reacting.


The 4v had less reaction.



Still, I'd be more watchful with 4v then other tool steels.
It's alot more reactive then M4, 3V, Cruwear, PD-1 and Z-Wear, CPM D2 and Psf27

Am I missing something? It has 5% chromium, which is more than M4/Rex45/Hap40 (which range from 4%-4.75% cr). It should theoretically be more resistant than those. D2 is just shy of stainless level, so that is obviously much higher resistance. Cruwear/3V/PD-1/Z-Wear come in around 7.5%-7.75% cr so they should be slightly more resistant.

Unless there is a chemical reaction to some other material in the steel that I am unaware of, this should be easily comparable to any of the common semi stainless steels except for D2 and PSF27. Basically in the middle, leaning towards the M4 family.

Larrin shows in a list here from the article.

Basically Steels at the top of the list are more stainless/less reactive then steels at the bottom. However, he has them organized by there free Chromium in solution not tied up in carbides after heat treatment, so near the bottom middle there may be some caveats.

In the chart, he shows:
Austenizing temp, Chromium, molybdenum and PREN

The Austenizing temp is important because it is afactor in how much alloy is in solution.

Using the chromium percentage, Larrin shows how much Chromium is in solution to create an oxide film to passivate reactivity.

The Molybdenum is not just purely for Carbide formation and hardenbility. It also helps with pitting, he shows how much molybdenum is in solution.

The PREN stands for Pitting Resistance Equivalent Number. You'll notice that Vanadis 4 (4V is a copy) has more Cr in solution then M4 but less PREN due to the lower amount of Molybdenum in solution.



The article is really great and covers alot of details.

It's so awesome that we have a legit Metallurgist in the knife community sharing.

Subscribe to the website great great information there and more coming.

The next article is about Nitrogen steels and how Nitrogen works in the steel.

So exciting!

I read the article. Since I am not a metallurgist, I took away the most information from the following line: "The ranking by Cr content in solution is probably more accurate for predicting the relative corrosion resistance of each."

So if we don't have the other information (temps etc) we can guesstimate that, at worst, 4V is comparable to the M4 family. Not significantly worse as was said earlier. PREN only seems to count for pitting and crevice corrosion when exposed to Chloride, IE Saltwater (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitting_r ... ent_number). I wouldn't dare expose tool steel to saltwater unless I had to, even then I would take all steps to make sure the blade was cleaned and oiled after exposure (definitely oiled before).

Now I know you have done work with 4V on your custom knives so you have field experience, but I also think you have been pushing your 4V to the max RC. The article inferred that the higher RC is going to be less resistant to corrosion because apparently the higher you go in RC the less Cr is available in solution. It may be that the custom blades you have are not going to exhibit the same response as those of the one on this upcoming para3.

Obviously I am just making estimates based off numbers. I don't have your experience with the 'real steel' yet. I might be completely wrong, but I would think that it should definitely be somewhat resistant to average exposure to non-saltwater and humidity, at least to m4 levels as I said, albeit m4 should technically be more resistant to saltwater depending on treatment.

I'd say at the end of the day you don't have to be a Metallurgist or a custom knife maker to see how it stacks up. Just get your hands on some and try it out.

Let us know how it holds up. It's nice seeing different peoples perspectives and experiences.
I'd never learn as much as I know now if I didn't keep an open mind.

[Brackish]

Ugh. I was so stoked about this knife, but the more I read about the steel, the less I think I’m going to buy one. I’m just not one for blade maintenance. Never oiled a blade in my life. Sometimes don’t even rinse them off. Guess I’ll continue to wait for the Native 5 Salt. Seems like a steel tailor made for people like me.

[TkoK83Spy]

What a sweet looking knife! Before I joined and was lurking around, I believe I saw a post or thread about Cutlery Shoppe releasing their Para 3/DLC/XHP?? Don't mean to hijack this thread, but can anybody confirm that or when it's supposed to be released? Would love to get at least one of these 2.

[Luke2236]

Talked to the guys after work today. If you plan on getting by the store to pick yours up each store is only getting 5 each for the shelves. Also if you missed out or have been on the fence about getting their Delica pay attention to their Instagram page. There might be something coming.

[Brown_Recluse]

each store is only getting 5 each for the shelves.

Do you know how many knives this run is?

[Sharp Guy]

Do you know how many knives this run is?

From a couple pages back in this thread...

Is there any word on how big the run is?

I don't know exactly how big the run is but I was told there'll be somewhere around 575 available for sale.

[Luke2236]

Let me clear it up some. If you plan on going into the brick and mortar store they will only have 5 knives per store. The rest of the knives are reserved for internet sales.

[Luke2236]

So if you live in or around north Alabama you might want to be where you can order one instead of counting on being able to walk into the store and pick one up. That’s what I was told this evening while I was standing in the store.

[Brown_Recluse]

Do you know how many knives this run is?

From a couple pages back in this thread...

Is there any word on how big the run is?

I don't know exactly how big the run is but I was told there'll be somewhere around 575 available for sale.

Thanks. I looked thru the previous pages but couldn't spot it.

[Hgwxx7]

Today is the day my friends!

Do we know if it's being released in batches or all at once?

[Luke2236]

I’ll find out today. I’m gonna head over around lunch time and see if they have came in yet if not I’ll probably hang out at the shop a while until they get their delivery. I plan on getting my father this knife and have my eye on a v2 Delica.