Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

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kodai78
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Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#1

Post by kodai78 »

I see marketing material saying steel on titanium lockfaces prevents premature wear of the lockfaces and they are often overtravel stops as well. Has anyone seen or heard of wear of the lockface or overtravel of the lockbar being common problems? I own several titanium framelocks and have yet to see a problem. I am just curious. I know the answer can be found among my fellow forum members.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#2

Post by gdwtvb »

Personally I see this as another example of a 'virtual problem' that has cropped up in the age of the internet. It works something like this, we now have almost unlimited research materials for just about any product and discussions that used to take place by two people verbally in a knife shop are now permanently recorded in forums for all to see. One poster on a forum floats an idea that doesn't the wear of a titanium against a hardened steel blade create a wear point that will eventually fail? The idea seems reasonable and may be seen as a flaw if you haven't actually used a single well made ti framelock for EDC for over ten years without the appearance of any wear. Eventually it gets repeated enough so that some people will start preaching that they won't buy a frame lock without a 'steel lockbar interface' because any knife without one is inferior. The manufacturers are in the business of making more sales, an uneccessary upgrade is touted as an improvement to garner more sales, other manufacturers follow suit to avoid loosing sales....and round and round it goes. Have you ever used a knife with a slightly off center blade? Could you tell the difference in use? No, if you're honest. Does it feel different in hand? No, if you're honest. Does it cut less well? No. but we have been made aware of this 'virtual problem' and now many that may have never noticed a slightly off center blade routinely check and complain if their blade is not perfectly centered. Manufacturers are forced to fix 'virtual problems' that in no way affect the performance of their product.

You see similar behavior in most forums. Shooters worrying about gun barrels that are 'only' good for 5,000 rounds on something like a .308; how long does it take a person to go through $2500 worth of ammunition? Forum sharpshooters that need sub-Minute of Angle rifles, yet are pretty poor shots. (I've had the displeasure to experience this first hand more than once.)

Most of us here on the forums have multiple knives, don't carry the same exact knife for decades in a row, and will never have the opportunity to actually wear out a pocket knife.

Buy what you like from a major manufacturer and I doubt you'll have any problems.

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MichaelScott
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#3

Post by MichaelScott »

Not having seen any reliable evidence of lockbar wear to failure, or Ti lockbar wear of any kind, I think I agree with you.

I do agree that “virtual problems” exist and are often difficult to untangle from actual problems.

Nicely done post!
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#4

Post by Woodpuppy »

^^^^ well said Grizz!! In general we have too many choices today. And that’s not always a good thing. Especially since most folks don’t know what they want let alone what they actually need.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#5

Post by knivesandbooks »

I agree, I agree. You're going to oversharpen the blade before you wear out the lock. I think that in order to address the nearly virtual problem (nice philosophy term inclusion btw) of blades wearing out, manufacturers should start supplying each knife with a spare blade. Perhaps of a lesser steel to keep the cost of this unnessary upgrade down. One in s30v and one in 440c. That way when my nearly virtual problem of sharpened out blade occurs I will have a fresh blade.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#6

Post by Evil D »

I think it's a genius idea regardless of the liner material. It makes a lock face that is 100% rebuildable. No more bottomed out liner locks. Put them on everything.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#7

Post by sal »

Hi Grizz,

At first I thought you were talking about politics..... ;)

Actually, it is more complex than it might appear. When we first started working with high vanadium steels in blades, we ended up completely wearing down a hammer in a slipit. And that was a steel spring commonly used on lock-backs. In the end we had to use knife steels for locks because the vanadium carbides were so aggressive that they actually wore, even though polished, the adjacent steel. Tit wears much faster than steel. We had a customer that wore his Ti lock 40% just by opening and closing the knife constantly from rubbing the side of the tang. So some thought is necessary.

When Michael developed his titanium Linerlock, he used Ti partially because it would gaul against the steel ramp of the blade and would be less likely to slip (sticky). Now "sticky locks" is a disease.

sal
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phaust
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#8

Post by phaust »

I had a small Sebenza 21 dent its lock face within a week or two of owning it. It never cut anything more than paper during that time, certainly no abuse (I wish I could afford to throw hundreds of dollars away ;) ). I assume the titanium was messed up in some facet.

Never had that problem in even a cheap steel liner lock, however.

I stay away from ti on steel to this day. I don't mean to imply all ti frame locks will have the same problem. There are just so many other locks that it's easy to stay away and not have to worry about wear issues, especially when ti frame locks even make for a higher price.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#9

Post by Woodpuppy »

sal wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:28 pm
Hi Grizz,

At first I thought you were talking about politics..... ;)
That would be a much longer post :rolleyes:
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#10

Post by fanglekai »

My Sage 2 doesn't show much wear and I've had it and used it for 6 years or so. If the knife is used as a fidgeting toy opening and closing all the time then you might wear it out eventually. In normal use it should last indefinitely assuming no defects.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#11

Post by The Mastiff »

For many of us, maybe most it isn't an issue. How many times here and at Bf have we seen people talk about using their knives as fidget toys? I can see why the knife maker would rather have the steel lockbar face that can be changed easier. It makes sense. Steel lock faces can "chatter" / slip slightly when bumped quicker than sticky ti faces will but IME that is not a big issue and goes away when broken in. For me they are a plus feature in a knife but yes I can get by without them and have.

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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#12

Post by M4Life »

I have never had a a titanium lock bar with or without a steel insert wear out or fail on me. However, I would say that a steel insert does help reduce lockstick, although some knifes without an insert will have lockstick out of the box but break in with use.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#13

Post by curlyhairedboy »

I think it's absolutely necessary, since I've personally worn down Ti lockfaces to the point of developing up/down blade play. I didn't think it was a real problem until.....oh no, it IS real.

Since then, I've sold all my Slysz models since they don't have a steel lock interface, and have heavily weighted my collection towards the compression lock, which has among its advantages an all-steel interface.

I'm always hopeful that any Slysz models in the future include lockbar inserts, but I'd rather avoid those knives until they do.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#14

Post by ABX2011 »

I think a steel lock interface makes sense especially in the context of ball bearing flippers that clearly encourage playing with the knife.
It's not a requirement for me. The most important thing is good lock geometry. I preordered the Techno 2 (no insert).
I don't mind a little lock stick. It's way better than lock slippage.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#15

Post by ChrisinHove »

It appeals to me as good engineering practice, but wouldn’t be a deal breaker.

However, why one would choose the unnecessary complexity &c. of a ball bearing pivot over a plain bearing pivot, and not also fit a simple steel lock bar insert, escapes me.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#16

Post by FK »

YES,,,, sticky locks are annoying.

I have owned 8-9 CRK Sebenza and 4-5 other custom Ti liner locks over the past 20 years.
All had some degree of sticky and required attention to tension or lubrication on the lock face.

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kodai78
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#17

Post by kodai78 »

Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion. I guess in my case I don’t carry or fidget with any single knife enough to wear it out. I have noticed some lock stick but it was minor. I have not made a purchase decision based on the presence or absence of a steel lockface insert. Cost and visual and material design weigh more heavily for me.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#18

Post by ferider »

I have two Tighe Sticks and two K2. All 4 have lock-stick. And I use them sporadically only. For all four I can tell that % lockup has increased over time. The K2 has a hardened lock, the Stick I don't know. In any case, I'm suspecting that the wear is due to lock stick more so than the locks not having steel inserts. And I have seen sticking steel inserts as well (different brand) - a sticking lock is due to geometry, not material, I think.

I don't feel over-travel is a real issue.
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#19

Post by Daveho »

I can only envision it being an issue if a lot of pressure is being applied to the lock face which In my useage it just isn’t a common occurrence.
I can imagine hammering a blade through something could but that’s just me speculating
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Re: Steel inserts on titanium lockfaces, are they necessary?

#20

Post by kodai78 »

I wasn’t thinking of hammering or batoning as a cause for overtravel. I’m firmly in the don’t beat on your folder, get an ax or saw school of thought. I have read that the lockbar can be moved too far in daily use and affect the functionality of the lockbar. The consensus here seems to be that is an unlikely occurrence. My collection of knives has included 5 titanium frame or Reeve integral locks so far from 4 manufacturers. I haven’t had an issue of any kind. Only one of these had had a lockface treatment (not a steel piece but a ceramic ball). The others are just titanium and they exhibit stick (minor) in one instance only. I’m either not using my knives very hard or there’s some marketing mumbo jumbo going on.
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