VG-10 vs. 440C vs. 154CM

[curious]

On Benchmade's site they state that 154CM is slightly better than 440C. I have read that 440C is inferior to ATS-34.



Spyderco used ATS-55, similar in properties to ATS-34.



Spyderco replaced ATS-55 with superior VG-10.



Therefore, is it in some way wrong to conclude that VG-10 is better than Benchmade steels?



For those of you who have used VG-10 and familiar with 154Cm or 440C please share your experiences

[Joe Talmadge]

I'd pick VG-10 over 440C, ATS-34/154-CM most every time. But I don't think you can draw the conclusion you're proposing, that "VG-10 is better than Benchmade steels", which is a bit too broad. After all, Benchmade also uses in some knives M-2, D-2, and S30V.

[vampyrewolf]

Going by the steel used in spyderco knives alone:

440C is a rather soft steel, when compared to VG-10. Takes a sweet edge but doesn't stay sharp under use.

ATS-34 is harder to sharpen than ATS-55.

ATS-55 is easy to work with, taking a decent edge(even as low as 30deg inclusive), and holding it through some rough work(at least in my samples over 3yrs of spyderco ats-55... shingles and all).

VG-10 is a "super steel". Takes a sweet edge, all the way down to 20inclusive, and backed to 30 for the wire(4 strokes +/- on each side total). My Calypso jr lt shaves off the 800grit stone, and I could polish the edge up and stil have it shave. Fine grain in it.

Branching out a bit though, my Fixed blade is the other end for 440C(Muela 4" skinner). Takes a sweet edge and keeps up, and doesn't chip out. I had my origional edge(97) at 40inclusive, and out of boredom took it to 30deg in 2002. Now don't get anything in the way if it's not to be cut.

My Word, My Honour, is my Life.

Edited by - vampyrewolf on 4/23/2003 7:51:09 PM

[curious]

ok so what else if considered "supersteel"? i'm looking to get a CF Police if they are still available but what about other manufactures? anything under $100 with G-10 handles, liner and supersteel?

I was looking at the BM 814 mini AFCK or 813 mini TSEK both over $100 CAN with G-10 and 154CM and 440C respectively

I like G-10 and the use of 410 SS liners but am not sure if the price is justifed when compared to my Endura which cost $76

I mean a SS Police is $127 CAN when the AFCK is $124 and the TSEK is $105.45

any thoughts?

[cheez]

i believe the 814 uses titanium liners, not stainless steel ones.

[dialex]

The 154CM is quite similar to the ATS-34. I'm not very fond of it. I found ATS-55 a great steel, definitely better than ATS-34, it sharpens fair easily and holds a decent edge. VG-10 has a great edge retention and also can be sharpened easily. I just love it <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
440C is an "economy class" steel.

<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>

[wire edge]

In my experience, ats-34 and 154cm are a little harder to sharpen than ats-55 but hold a edge longer, vg-10 seems to be even with 154cm and ats-34 in edge holding and 440c is the easiest to sharpen but holds an edge not as well as the aformentioned steels,although, it is an acceptable steel to me and it has greater corosion resistance than a lot of other stainlesses.You really cant go wrong with any of them and one thing to remember is the quality of the heat treat makes a big difference in the performance, so it is possible for a 440c blade with a good heat treat to outpreform a vg-10 blade that has a bad heat treat.

[Joe Talmadge]

Heh. As you can see, none of us agree on anything. I don't even agree that VG-10 is a "supersteel". Okay, that's a corny term, but in any case, when I tried to rank stainless steels, I put VG-10 in the same category as ATS-34 and 154-CM. I think VG-10 performs a little better than ATS-34, not a huge amount better, so it doesn't deserve a full category bump. In the category above ATS-34, I put S30V, S90V, and BG-42. Just one person's view, it's worth digesting everyone's views though. In fact, it's worth buying a few knives, testing them head to head, and coming to your own conclusions!

Joe

[Sword and Shield]

154CM and ATS34 are nearly the same thing, just different makers. (Hitachi and Crucible, I think?) Both can be excellent given the right heat-treat.

440C is a good working steel. It won't be spectacular in any category, but is well-balanced, a little of everything.

Never underestimate the impossible.

[vampyrewolf]

Joe> could just be the way I section off the steels... Carbon, stainless, and super steel(VG-10, stellite, talonite, titanium, etc... all have thier specific tasks, and are usually better than a basic carbon or stainless).



My Word, My Honour, is my Life.

[sc_rebel1957]

Ok lets throw non stainless steels in the mix and see what we get as comments.
Lately I've been working alot with the M-2 D-2 steels and IMO find them to be some of the toughest steels going, on the AFCK AXIS D-2 I can get a much sharper edge quicker and it seems to hold it longer, same with the M-2 HSS version when combined with the BT coating they are hard to beat.
I totaly agree it's 90% heat treat being the determing factor in toughness, for instance the 154 CM used in Emmerson knives, will outlast the same steel in B/Ms in cutting ability atleast 20%.
I've also found variance in the VG-10 )( uses between models, my Viele's, Delica's, Endura's take a keener edge than the Shabaria, Calypso, given the same sharpening angle, different blade, different shape obviously!
To my way of thinking there is no 1 perfect steel all have different uses.
I recently aquired a Starmate in CPM-440V PE and I must say this is the most wicked edge I've ever felt on a PE, and try as I might I just can't make the Native or the Millie get the same edge?
As Joe mentioned S30V/S90V is in a different class I think.
Back to the 1st of this post was mentioned that 440C was slightly better than ATS-34/154CM same steel/different companies, I can't agree that it's even in the same class.
Again <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> does 440C better than most, the Meerkat holds up well for it's intended use which is IMO light everday duty.
I tend to agree with Wolf that ATS-55 is way underrated with all the new class of metals avalible today, I can't site even 1 instance when sharpened properly that it's let me down, and in some ways especially on SE models I've found it works better for my uses.
I enjoy these type of discussions as I think it's worth going over for some of the new members, bottom line choose what works for you and don't let every article on the "new super end all blade material" decide for you <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>. Ron

[wire edge]

Right on Rebel!

Another note, you will find that the better you become at sharpening knives the less important that the blade steel maters, like I said, Im happy with anything in stainless that is as good as 440C or G-2 on up and I like all the carbon steels too, as a matter of fact, sometimes I like the ease of sharpening that you get out of steels like 440A and 1095 carbon better than the super steels because no matter what blade steel it is, it is going to get dull and sometimes the speed at which you can sharpen a knife is more important than edge holding.

I sometimes carry a Camillus stockman at work as my rough work knife and keep my EDC sharp and ready to go, I can damage and dull the heck out of this 440A knife and have it back sharp quickly, harder blades would have a tendacy to chip with this abuse.

Another example is the good old 1095 carbon, because of its fine grain structure it can easily be brought up to razor sharp quickly and also takes abuse well.

[curious]

so lemme see if i understand this:

1. vg-10 only comes form japan
2. BM is made in USA so cannot get vg-10
3. BM uses ats-34 variant 153cm
4. spyderco replaced ats with vg-10 b/c supposedly "better" overall steel
5. heat treatment important too

so my question guys, is: does BM treated 153cm/ats-34 equal spyderco vg-10 in overall qualities (corrosion, sharpness, edge retention, hardness, etc)?

[vampyrewolf]

ATS-34/154cm is a step above ats-55, but still a step below VG-10.

ATS-55 was produced specifically for spyderco. Lower Molybdenum(4.0% for 34, vs 0.6% for 55), and More Manganese(0.4% for 34, vs 0.5% for 55). It can be made to proform better than ats-34 though, at least in what I've seen.

Heat Treat makes all the difference. some ATS-55 from <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> will rust on sight, while the properly done ones will sit in moisture while you swim, and a rinse is fine.

My Word, My Honour, is my Life.

[curious]

haha you keep replying to my posts vamp. check the other forum <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> i replied to yours too!

since you are a spydie fan i was wondering if you could compare them with BM stuff. Spydies have no liners and weaker handle materials (FRN vs G-10). BM has lower steel. If you've ever owned BMs too could you tell me about your experiences? thanks.

[cheez]

dude, it depends on what knifes you're comparing. spyderco doesn't necessarily lack liners, nor do they always use 'weaker' materials, and m2 sure isn't inferior to aus6a.

regards, cheez

[wire edge]

Benchmades 154cm is not inferior to vg-10, I own around 20 benchmade knives and while I like vg-10 I think 154CM is as good an edge holder and a little bit tougher to boot. Benchmade also offers CPM S30v and the high strength, excellent edge holding M2 carbon steel.

Pick a knife in any of these steels-ATS-34,154CM,S30v,CPM 440v,VG-10,ATS-55 and rest assured that you have a modern high quality blade steel.

The point Im trying to make is that it is more important to look at other features of the knife that you like,blade length,handle material,lock stlye, ect. and quit worrying about blade steel as the number one determining factor for your purchase.

[J Smith]

I agree that blade steel is not the end all and be all of a knife purchase.
I Like S30V,440V,Aus 8, and Aus 10 the best.I have found that the way the edge is ground makes a huge differance in perforance.
I can get a wicked sharp edge on my Natives and military but can barely get a useable edge on the Wegner and Mouse.

I learn something new everyday,even though I don't want to. Jeff

[Joe Talmadge]

curious, based on the questions you're asking, I wonder if what you're trying to get to is a simple decision on whether to buy Spyderco or Benchmade, based on simple criteria like blade steel, liners, etc. I apologize if I've misread you. But in case I haven't, let me advise that even the conclusions you're coming to now -- Spyderco has better steel than BM, Spyderco has no liners -- are at the very least misleading, and in some cases just plain wrong. Some Spyderco knives don't have liners, but many do. VG-10 is a better steel than 154-CM, but the performance delta is small enough that I think you'd be crazy to make this the main decision point. And besides, some BMs come with M2, D2, or S30V.

In my opinion, the only way you'll make good decisions on BM versus S is by asking to compare some specific BM and S knives head-to-head, or to describe what you want the knife to do. These broader generalizations -- X has better steel, Y has better construction -- aren't true, and any conclusions you come to based strictly on them will be faulty!

You'd be better off asking for a comparison of Military versus 710 and Axis AFCK, Delica/endura/native versus Ascent series, etc.

Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 4/24/2003 11:21:11 AM

[sc_rebel1957]

Here's a pic showing just about all the different steels avalible from both companies.
As you will notice the 4 <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s I grabbed outta the safe WITH dual SS liners , also note the 3 linerless B/M knives at the top. Ron