Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

[SF Native]

No one ever wants to pay for the soft cost (I.e. design and development).
I think spyderco’s are made to work and zt’s are made to look pretty and be figet toys.
Got 2 zt’s and both have my natural hand position pushing down on the lockbar, which prevents flipping. Now I can learn a new hand position. Or I can buy a knife that just works right out of the box and had someone handle it before it was sent to production.

[sal]

Hi DrVenkman,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[spyderg]

I’ll start by mentioning I haven’t read through this whole thread. My thoughts on the cost cutting mentioned is it’s not necessarily just cost savings. Perhaps a steel liner rather than Ti is about balance? A drilled out steel liner perhaps weighs the same as a full ti and less costly and provides the weight balance desired.
Also with the dice and domino, they used cf over g10, but in the original at least, they used a special pattern cf, perhaps it wasn’t available as a slab? Or maybe full cf in the pattern would have been at very high cost. Another thing I’m thinking of is a lot of people nit pick about voids found in most solid cf. I think it’s pretty rare to have voids in g10 so it gives a very clean edge on the scale.
In any case I love my Domino, and IMO it looks and feels in no way to have been the victim of any cost saving measures. I can say the same of my GB. And for that matter most of my Spydercos. The only slightly dissapointing ones I’ve got are the Seki models. And that’s not due to cost savings on materials, just not as well made as the others.

[murphjd25]

Stop feeding the troll, haven't you guys learned :p :eek:

[JacksonKnives]

Spyderco is always doing there best to make a knife for everyone.
...

I think there's an important distinction to be made between "best for everyone" and "Best knife within a certain value system" (as Sal puts it.)

It's not just the cost of materials, it's a question of where the materials are coming from and how those materials fit into the production processes used at the plant designated for the knife. Sure, Sal could take Moku-Ti across the ocean in his carry-on luggage for vanity models like some other designers do... but that's not in Sal's value system.

The Spyderco "value system" ranks G-10/CF laminate higher than the cosmetic and "authenticity" value of CF sheet from a different source. Sal hasn't ever (that I've seen) clearly explained all of the factors in this decision. (He doesn't have to: Spyderco loyalists will buy anything. )

That lack of transparency means it's impossible for us to know why the Myrtle, the Rubicon 2, and the Positron, knives out of the same factory, use such different handle material. The Rubicon has the "Taichung twill" laminate CF, Myrtle uses a solid "marble CF" show scale; then the Positron came out at a much lower MSRP with a *sculpted* solid-CF handle.

For all we know, Sal really likes the quality of the laminate that his suppliers can get better than all the other CF they showed him in the price range, and deems it "objectively better."

Maybe for knives like the Positron, they bought CF that's got a low-grade surface finish, since it'll just get ground off anyhow. Maybe it took them a long time to find a product like that which didn't also have consistency problems inside the weave.

If you asked me which material I'd choose, I'd pick sculpted CF every day of the week. (Looking forward to the Drunken.)
That said: Slab scales are cheaper/faster/easier to make, and very good at doing their job. (Most of the PM2 "mod" replacement scales are still just doing radiused slabs.) They don't tie up a CNC machine for as long or require surface tooling, either, so slab scales solve a lot of problems in manufacturing.

If nobody makes the texture that we like in a solid CF sheet... well, that's how it is.

If (wild speculation) the tooling in Taichung can't handle stamping titanium liners but stainless is easy, it's not worth tying up the EDM/laser/waterjet machine just to shape the liners. I'd guess it's something like this since we see similar decisions with materials in Seki knives: shops that can handle solid blades in fancy steel (ZDP Stretch) will do so, shops that can't (ZDP Caly) need to source a laminate sheet of the same steel.

[Bloke]

Hi ugaarguy, If something annoys me I just don't think about it.

I'm not too sure this will help you here but it certainly works for me and may be worth a try. :)

I wonder how many people would continue to frequent a forum filled only with positive opinions and reviews or meme photos?

Good questions, well asked but something I can't answer.

I'm not sure the opening post was worded to generate debate but more of a personal dislike and comparison between Spyderco and another manufacturer to which Mr Glesser responded in his typical rational manner. I would have though that to be sufficient.

Specific to my response; I can't see any value in being annoyed particularly when you have a choice and offered what works for me when I'm annoyed.

Anyhow, hope my response didn't annoy anyone. :)

[Daveho]

Hi ugaarguy, If something annoys me I just don't think about it.

I'm not too sure this will help you here but it certainly works for me and may be worth a try. :)

I wonder how many people would continue to frequent a forum filled only with positive opinions and reviews or meme photos?

Good questions, well asked but something I can't answer.

I'm not sure the opening post was worded to generate debate but more of a personal dislike and comparison between Spyderco and another manufacturer to which Mr Glesser responded in his typical rational manner. I would have though that to be sufficient.

Specific to my response; I can't see any value in being annoyed particularly when you have a choice and offered what works for me when I'm annoyed.

Anyhow, hope my response didn't annoy anyone. :)

**** your rational response!
That annoys me so

[Forest Green]

Marketing is tricky business, mistakes are always made, CF laminate probably was one of those moments, hope we don't see it ever again. I have the CF PPT, beautiful knife, but the thing is paper weight heavy, not sure how much more a Ti frame would have cost, the beauty of the shredded CF sculpted scales and the S90V blade seem worthy of Ti.
What makes me most happy about Spyderco are their PM 2's, in my mind the perfect knife, I love the G10 handles, the CF handles, the various steels, and always the great blade, not too expensive.

[jabba359]

Well, I've often made the same price to materials comparison in my head as well and also wished Spyderco had spent just a little more to really put the knife over the top. I passed on the Nirvana for this exact reason. That knife deserved a custom pivot and clip.

[Sharp Guy]

Marketing is tricky business, mistakes are always made, CF laminate probably was one of those moments, hope we don't see it ever again.

There's still 8 knives in the catalog that use CF/G10 laminate and at least 3 in the mid-year catalog that aren't released yet.

[fanglekai]

I didn't read the whole thread so this may have been addressed already. I bought a Domino for $180 when they first came out. After they were discontinued I saw them available for $125. At the regular price it was $70 cheaper than the ZT. That's a much larger difference than the op mentioned.

[Forest Green]

Marketing is tricky business, mistakes are always made, CF laminate probably was one of those moments, hope we don't see it ever again.

There's still 8 knives in the catalog that use CF/G10 laminate and at least 3 in the mid-year catalog that aren't released yet.

More unrealized hopes. I would love to hear from folks who would not buy a knife because of CF laminate.

[Sharp Guy]

Marketing is tricky business, mistakes are always made, CF laminate probably was one of those moments, hope we don't see it ever again.

There's still 8 knives in the catalog that use CF/G10 laminate and at least 3 in the mid-year catalog that aren't released yet.

More unrealized hopes. I would love to hear from folks who would not buy a knife because of CF laminate.

That wouldn't be me :) I have several knives with CF/G10 laminate and I'm perfectly fine with it. It looks nice and it's proven to be very durable.

[MichaelScott]

Marketing is tricky business, mistakes are always made, CF laminate probably was one of those moments, hope we don't see it ever again.

There's still 8 knives in the catalog that use CF/G10 laminate and at least 3 in the mid-year catalog that aren't released yet.

More unrealized hopes. I would love to hear from folks who would not buy a knife because of CF laminate.

That wouldn't be me :) I have several knives with CF/G10 laminate and I'm perfectly fine with it. It looks nice and it's proven to be very durable.

I like mine. In fact, I would take it over pure CF any day.

[vivi]

What's not to like about CF laminate? I think my black Szabo uses it, and it looks and feels great. I'm confused by the hate.

I've had some CF knives where the edges of the scales felt like they were fraying. Never felt that with laminate.

[Forest Green]

There's still 8 knives in the catalog that use CF/G10 laminate and at least 3 in the mid-year catalog that aren't released yet.

More unrealized hopes. I would love to hear from folks who would not buy a knife because of CF laminate.

That wouldn't be me :) I have several knives with CF/G10 laminate and I'm perfectly fine with it. It looks nice and it's proven to be very durable.

I like mine. In fact, I would take it over pure CF any day.

G10 is beautiful, why cover it?

[MichaelScott]

Choices.

[Forest Green]

Choices.

Great answer! Freedom and choice are thee most important.

[curlyhairedboy]

I have no issues with CF in any form, but it's definitely in the same broad composite family as G10, so I don't have a problem with saving money and having a thinner show layer on top.

[SF Native]

Cf can have such a variety of appearance but I’m a bit on cf overload. It’s on everything these day. It’s in car trim, bicycles, knives...surprised they aren’t making beer cans of cf.
I like g10 just as much.
I do really like marbles cf on the myrtle. It’s solid but I would like it just as much if it was a laminate. The peel ply feels great, but appearance is just ok.