Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Eli Chaps
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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Eli Chaps » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:36 am

sal wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:12 pm
Hi Ugaarguy,

Perhaps we don't think of it as cost cutting. Perhaps your estimate of an added $25 is low. Adding a Ti liner where no spring is necessary and using solid CF will add far more than you think? Why make the model more expensive than is necessary? Our knives are expensive for a lot of people and a few dollars savings is appreciated by many. For some reason, it seems that you think it will change the value of the model. I think that may be true for you, but we'll see where the discussion goes?

sal
Dear Sal,

I work in manufacturing. I will never suppose to tell you how to run your business, make any inference that I understand more about your business than you do, or have any delusions that I somehow may know better than you do when it comes to making Spyderco knives. There's just faaaar to much that
people don't understand. And well, you kinda sorta, seem to have, ya know, kinda had a tiny bit of success. ;)

Suggestions are one thing but spouting costs and techniques and whatnot? Not me.

Thanks for all you do.
Last edited by Eli Chaps on Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Eli Chaps » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:38 am

Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:41 pm

What it costs to fill my truck has relevance to me.
I had a trying weekend and so far a rather frustrating morning. And that sir, just about made me spit my morning coffee all over my screen.

Thank you for setting my mood back on the right track for the day!

:D

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby MichaelScott » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:55 am

The OP’s argument, if such it can be termed, is basically the same as the clamor for shipped parts and a custom shop. They want what they want and criticize Spyderco for not providing it to them. In the main, they fail to grasp basic business and economic principles as applied to the knife making business.

A simple analogy: if 1% of your customers have sweatty shorts it makes no sense to produce a product for them that is out of the price range of the other 99% of your customers.

For those of you who are interested in why this may be, and for those who demand compliance with their sweatty shorts problems, see:

https://www.avaresearch.com/files/Unski ... reOfIt.pdf
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby Tdog » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:40 am

Guess I've always tried to keep things simple. If I see a knife I like at a price I can live with, I purchase it. Between the production and custom knives, there are waaay more that I like, than I can afford. "Value" is a subjective term. Would I like to see materials, or design changes in knives that I already have, or those that will be released in the future? Yes, and most of us here almost certainly would say the same. Most knives are discretionary purchases. Buy or don't buy, keep it simple....don't worry, be happy. :)

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby TomAiello » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:47 am

Honestly, it seems like the OP here is getting some pretty harsh criticism for voicing this opinion, which strikes me as unfair. He had specifics, comparisons to other manufacturers, and suggestions for improvement.

It seems like we (the forum members, in which I include myself) are kind of "fanboying" him for his opinion/request/suggestion.

He's got reasonable points, and I think it's fair for him to inquire here (the manufacturers forum) with his question/suggestion.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby MichaelScott » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:21 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:25 pm
I understand cost cutting on lower end models, but I don't understand why Spyderco does it on higher models.

... the CF laminate still annoys me

Then there's the soon to be released Brouwer. ... But, for some reason Spyderco decided to cost cut by putting a steel liner under the G10, rather than a Ti liner. ... I'm guessing that a Ti liner would have added $20-$25 to the end retail price of the Brouwer. Why cheap out with a steel liner on a knife that's already $175?
No, the OP is basically complaining that Spyderco is “...cheap[ing] out...” because they have opted to not build the Brouwer exactly as he wants. Asking why Spyderco made that decision would be a balanced inquiry. This one is loaded.

I believe his question has been adequately answered in this thread. The basic problem is the OP’s attitude toward some who disagree with him.

I don’t think this is going anywhere productive now.
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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby guywithopinion » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:49 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:54 pm
Sal, ZT has shown that they can do a solid CF handle, a longer & thicker blade in 204P with a more complex grind, add in the cosmetic Hinder over-travel stop disk (the hardened steel lock face already handles over-travel), make the knife in Tualitin, Oregon, and ship internal parts for free, all at a $250 price point. I'd love to see Spyderco be able to close that specs gap with the Taichung and Golden models. Eric's Domino is the subjectively better cutting tool, but the ZT produced Hinderer 0562 CF is the better value using objective metrics.
You acknowledged in your opening post that the 0562CF doesn't have the ergos or cutting performance that you desire. Yet you say it's a better objective value? The fact that it's not as good at being a knife doesn't objectively factor in to the value? Perhaps Spyderco spends extra cost in grinding the blades, designing and testing the ergos, etc? Is there no value in a knife's cutting ability?

I am speaking only from my impressions of Spyderco's products. But it sounds like you want to pay for a set of materials. I.e. X price should have Y steel or "better". Or Z handle material or better. I don't think Spyderco is that company. They seem to focus more on providing useful knives, though obviously they also focus on providing desirable and trendy materials. If you want to pay for Ti, M390, and CF, there are several other companies out there that provide it, ZT as an example.

I also think you could have made your preference known without trying to suggest how much using certain materials should cost Spyderco to use. I know some of the CF/G10 models don't particularly appeal to me as a result. And VG-10 isn't overly appealing to me in most knives. But since I don't produce knives commercially, I have to assume Spyderco knows what materials at what price points are more likely to sell. I'm sure they get it wrong sometimes, but I sure can't say I'd get it right more frequently.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby guywithopinion » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:54 am

Bloke wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:48 pm
Hi ugaarguy, If something annoys me I just don't think about it.

I'm not too sure this will help you here but it certainly works for me and may be worth a try. :)
I wonder how many people would continue to frequent a forum filled only with positive opinions and reviews or meme photos?

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby guywithopinion » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:02 am

Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:10 pm
See, I am a simple guy and what it costs to live is relative to what things cost to buy for me. If my truck takes a 100 dollars in gas then a 100 dollar knife is not that much money relative to cost the of living. So yeah. There is that. I think a 175 dollar knife is budget friendly. Just my opinion.
That does seem like a simple way of evaluating value. A $100 gallon of milk or bar of soap suddenly doesn't seem unreasonable. Did you find it hard to justify the truck purchase in the first place? The average new truck costs 325 fill-ups, which seems pretty extreme to someone whose value system is based around such things.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby guywithopinion » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:14 am

The Mastiff wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:45 am
Why would you even think it's your business to ask what knife I want or intend to buy?
It seems to me that you opened the door to this when you said you'd prefer they save every penny they can, as you only care about how the knife cuts. While I think Spyderco puts focus on this, there are plenty of models where this is not the only focus. They use materials and finishes that add nothing to how it cuts, like the beautiful fluting on some Ti and CF models. To my knowledge they don't cut any better after the fluting. But some people (myself included) find it well worth the extra cost. It hardly seems out of line to suggest that someone who only wants to spend pennies on improving cutting performance will not be interested in those models. You put that "business" in your post.


Not directed at you only, but I'm always surprised at how dismissive this forum can be.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby sal » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:17 am

Hi Guy,

The OP has a point based on his value system and we've certainly discussed the issue. We are always open to suggestions and opinions. I believe that the OP is trying to convince me that we should adopt the Kershaw/Kai/ZT/Shun value system, because in his opinion, he finds their value system more in line with his.

Kershaw/Kai/ZT/Shun is a very good orgnization. They've been around for a long time and they build good products in all of their divisions. Spyderco is likewise a good company that also builds good product.

While I do listen to all of the opinions and suggestions by our customers, we will make our decisions based on our own value system. In the end, I think ugaarguy will make his own decisions based on his value system. While it is just my opinion, I believe the OP's value system is not balanced between cost and everything else that goes into a knife. I think it is skewed to cost. Perhaps as he learns more about design, steels, cost of manufacturing and customer values, he may adjust his opinion. I think for now, the OP will be happier purchasing the Kersaw/ZT line.

We had another visitor that argued cost and value when he first joined the forum, though he seems to softened a bit lately. The Kai organizations are very good at offering cost/value in their products. As Nick says "different grinds for different kinds".

sal

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby curlyhairedboy » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:22 am

Having owned and used a BBS Domino and a 0562CF, both in CTS-204p steel...

Both worked well, but the Domino was in my experience a better slicer due to blade geometry.

It's my understanding that Spyderco doesn't primarily design blades with specific models from the competition in mind. From what I can see, it's the reviewing world and the enthusiast consumers who group various releases from different manufacturers into comparable tiers based on feature set and price.

There's no 'right' way to create these tiers, either. There could be a tier full of "exceptionally slicey middle finger flickable blades" and it would be just as valid as a tier full of "obtusely ground super steel blades that you can pry with". The validity of these tiers will depend on your needs as an end-line user.

To sum up - I'm not sure the feature comparison that the OP is referencing is MORE valid than any other argument influencing design.

Spyderco has always been about designing from the edge out. Shiny footprints, but nailing heat treats is more important than liner material in my mind.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby guywithopinion » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:37 am

sal wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:17 am
Hi Guy,

The OP has a point based on his value system and we've certainly discussed the issue. We are always open to suggestions and opinions. I believe that the OP is trying to convince me that we should adopt the Kershaw/Kai/ZT/Shun value system, because in his opinion, he finds their value system more in line with his.
To be clear, I was not referring to you when I made that comment about being dismissive. While your original post may have been a little gruff, the OP uses somewhat inflammatory language ("cost cutting" for example) as well as making possibly insulting guesses at internal costs. You mentioned that perhaps the costs he articulated were not realistic, which seems fair without offering up competitive info about your internal pricing. And of course no one expects you should make every model or change that people ask for in order to seem like you value their opinion.

However, some of the replies are basically telling the OP to keep their opinion to themselves.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby DrVenkman » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:41 am

One of the biggest reasons I enjoy Spyderco is the intense, and often unseen, thought and design that goes into every part of every model. While ZT may offer more exotic steels and the latest and greatest; I enjoy Sal and Eric's more methodical approach to their entire company. A couple points: lets not forget that in the grand scheme of things Spyderco is not a very large company. Also, one thing I challenge my customers on value/cost is "How much would it cost YOU to make it?". Once they truly think about it and start to wrap their minds around the entire process. They usually are more appreciative of the value/price of the item and why certain decisions were made during production.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby guywithopinion » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:43 am

TomAiello wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:59 pm
What does BM call their "upgraded" versions? "Black Label" or something? Could Spyderco do "high end" versions of their knives in a similar fashion?
Personally I always thought their Gold Class stuff was absurdly priced, though I am the wrong audience for them. But it is an interesting idea. It is pretty much always existing models though, with higher end handle materials and blade steels. Spyderco makes some sprints and exclusives that already do this (though so does Benchmade). But I wonder how much value it actually generates for the company. As an example, the stepped Ti Chaparral has quite exquisite handle material and a fairly high price. I wonder how that model performs in terms of revenue vs the much more affordable FRN Chap they recently released?

It also seems like Spyderco's "Gold Class" models are not variations of existing models, rather they are just more expensive regular or flash batch production. Like the Nirvana and such.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby The Mastiff » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:29 am

It seems to me that you opened the door to this when you said you'd prefer they save every penny they can
Don't see it that way.
However, some of the replies are basically telling the OP to keep their opinion to themselves.
" Basically telling"? I have no problems telling someone directly what I want to tell them . If I haven't said it it's because I didn't mean it so it's probably the same with the other posters here. If you go out of your way looking for reasons to be offended you will likely find them. That is your business though and you can spend your time as you want. Speaking for me I'd say don't put words or meanings in my posts I don't put there myself. :)

Joe

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

Postby ChrisinHove » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:02 pm

DrVenkman wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:41 am
One of the biggest reasons I enjoy Spyderco is the intense, and often unseen, thought and design that goes into every part of every model. While ZT may offer more exotic steels and the latest and greatest; I enjoy Sal and Eric's more methodical approach to their entire company. A couple points: lets not forget that in the grand scheme of things Spyderco is not a very large company. Also, one thing I challenge my customers on value/cost is "How much would it cost YOU to make it?". Once they truly think about it and start to wrap their minds around the entire process. They usually are more appreciative of the value/price of the item and why certain decisions were made during production.
This is a very valid point.

Whilst traveling (on holiday; who am I trying to kid) I make a point of buying at least one knife from one of the little knife makers or shops I come across. It’s fantastic to find these little shops making and selling blades, and I like to support them.

However, their products are expensive compared to manufactured knives, usually of slightly lesser quality (if I’m being completely objective) in terms of workmanship and materials, and often of idiosyncratic or archaic design. What they do reflect quite accurately, however, is their cost for usually one guy to make and sell.

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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Wh

Postby apollo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:21 pm

Spyderco is always doing there best to make a knife for everyone.
I can understand the op's wish for a ti liner but i am happy that it is ss and not ti.
Making the Brouwer a tiny bit cheaper without having to make the design less good is nothing bad in my eyes it is a sign Sal and the rest of,spyderco care about us. Yes if you have deep pockets i can understand you could be dissapointed.
But the only thing i can say to such a person is go buy a Nirvana , a tigh stick , and all the other high end expensive spyders most of us can not buy . or for us that need to pick one of the designs that are expensive if we made the long efford to save up the money and let the rest be dreams. If you do that you are also helping spyderco to help you so they can make more expensive ones for you and more affortable ones for us.so do not worry and just be happy there plenty of spyders coming for everyone.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby Archimedes » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:29 pm

guywithopinion wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:02 am
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:10 pm
See, I am a simple guy and what it costs to live is relative to what things cost to buy for me. If my truck takes a 100 dollars in gas then a 100 dollar knife is not that much money relative to cost the of living. So yeah. There is that. I think a 175 dollar knife is budget friendly. Just my opinion.
That does seem like a simple way of evaluating value. A $100 gallon of milk or bar of soap suddenly doesn't seem unreasonable. Did you find it hard to justify the truck purchase in the first place? The average new truck costs 325 fill-ups, which seems pretty extreme to someone whose value system is based around such things.
I don't have any value systems around money. I am not assigning value. I am talking costs. It costs this much to get gas. It costs this much to get a knife. It is just money. It is just a knife. It is just a tank of gas. It is just a truck.

Am I insane?..lol

My original point is I don't consider a knife under 500 dollars a high end model.

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Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?

Postby jdw » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:43 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:29 pm
guywithopinion wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:02 am
Archimedes wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:10 pm
See, I am a simple guy and what it costs to live is relative to what things cost to buy for me. If my truck takes a 100 dollars in gas then a 100 dollar knife is not that much money relative to cost the of living. So yeah. There is that. I think a 175 dollar knife is budget friendly. Just my opinion.
That does seem like a simple way of evaluating value. A $100 gallon of milk or bar of soap suddenly doesn't seem unreasonable. Did you find it hard to justify the truck purchase in the first place? The average new truck costs 325 fill-ups, which seems pretty extreme to someone whose value system is based around such things.
I don't have any value systems around money. I am not assigning value. I am talking costs. It costs this much to get gas. It costs this much to get a knife. It is just money. It is just a knife. It is just a tank of gas. It is just a truck.

Am I insane?..lol

My original point is I don't consider a knife under 500 dollars a high end model.
My love of Spyderco began because you don't have to spend $500 for the quality of a high end knife from them. They have consistently offered an amazing variety of steels that the average working person can have trouble affording otherwise. I have some of the other models mentioned in this thread but if I had to make a choice, then (IMO) you get much more value for the dollar with a Spyderco. And this comes from a long time buyer who thinks that the company has let quality control fall through the cracks.
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