Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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jtoler_9
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#101

Post by jtoler_9 »

tvenuto wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:49 pm
“Price fixing” is when 2 or more entities get together and decide to not undercut one another so they can both charge more than the market would otherwise bear. Thus, getting to price like a monopoly even though they are not otherwise. This is indeed a predatory business practice and yet is nothing at all like what’s going on when it comes to the secondary knife market. In fact, the secondary knife market is fueled primarily by a large auction site, and is about as close as you can come to a “free market” and pretty much the polar opposite of “price fixing.”

What’s more, price fixing really works best in scenarios where people actually need the product to survive (food, fuel, water, medicine, etc) anyway. Again, quite the opposite of collectible tools.
+1 well stated. Unfortunately, the emotional rarely deal in facts.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#102

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

MichaelScott wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:11 pm
tvenuto wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:49 pm
“Price fixing” is when 2 or more entities get together and decide to not undercut one another so they can both charge more than the market would otherwise bear. Thus, getting to price like a monopoly even though they are not otherwise. This is indeed a predatory business practice and yet is nothing at all like what’s going on when it comes to the secondary knife market. In fact, the secondary knife market is fueled primarily by a large auction site, and is about as close as you can come to a “free market” and pretty much the polar opposite of “price fixing.”

What’s more, price fixing really works best in scenarios where people actually need the product to survive (food, fuel, water, medicine, etc) anyway. Again, quite the opposite of collectible tools.
Well said. Thank you.
Exactly price fixing eBay buy it now. All agreed. Geeze must be allot of Ebay sellers here.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#103

Post by jtoler_9 »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:24 pm
Exactly price fixing eBay buy it now. All agreed. Geeze must be allot of Ebay sellers here.
I’m not an eBay seller, I just disagree with your point of view.

Whenever I see these threads pop up, and read the passionate arguments from the folks that take issue with the secondary market, those arguments always sounds similar to my ears as the arguments my kids have with each other all the time. They seem to frequently get frustrated when they feel things aren’t “fair”. Who got more ice cream at McDonalds for example. I’ve always taken the stance with my kids that life will never be fair, so stop comparing.

I feel the same way with the free market. It’s never going to be “fair” to everyone. I’m not going to get what I want at the price I want it at everytime. So I don’t think about it. I don’t care what other people do with their money and stuff. I don’t feel it’s any of my business. Thus my position that the aftermarket isn’t abysmal. It simply is what it is.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#104

Post by MichaelScott »

On eBay, “Buy it now” means that if you want to pay the advertised price you can get it before the auction begins. Once bidding starts, “buy it now” is no longer valid.

No, not “all agreed…”. When I put an item up for auction with a “buy it now” option, I don’t contact all other eBay sellers of the same item to make sure we are all at the same price. I may look to see what the item has sold for in the past and make an informed decision as to the initial price. This in not price fixing.

I have listed items for what I consider a fair market price. No one has to pay that. I may also solicit best offers. I don’t have to accept those either.

There is nothing unfair or predatory about this. If you think so you are either misinformed or stubbornly afflicted with personal bias.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#105

Post by Naperville »

No matter what the aftermarket is, or what sprint runs are, I would hope that Spyderco is looking in to these and seeing whether or not they are leaving a lot of sales on the table.

If for ex I have a 204p sale of 300 to 500 knives and they sell out in hours, is Spyderco leaving 1500 to 3000 knives potentially on the table? If so, then who other than those in the secondary market benefit? It surely does not benefit Spyderco, the collector, or general customer to be shut out of the market. THIS is where a custom shop with a six month run on "sprint runs" makes sense as everyone gets to buy one.

Rare knives in the low to mid tier do not make sense.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#106

Post by Brown_Recluse »

Naperville wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:53 pm
No matter what the aftermarket is, or what sprint runs are, I would hope that Spyderco is looking in to these and seeing whether or not they are leaving a lot of sales on the table.

If for ex I have a 204p sale of 300 to 500 knives and they sell out in hours, is Spyderco leaving 1500 to 3000 knives potentially on the table? If so, then who other than those in the secondary market benefit? It surely does not benefit Spyderco, the collector, or general customer to be shut out of the market. THIS is where a custom shop with a six month run on "sprint runs" makes sense as everyone gets to buy one.

Rare knives in the low to mid tier do not make sense.
While part of me agrees with you about the custom shop idea, the other part of me knows that if a custom shop makes sprint runs and exclusives perpetually available, then the collectability of said knives plummets. There is a certain sense of satisfaction and pride in owning a rare knife and if a custom shop can crank them out then it doesn't have the same meaning to collectors.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#107

Post by anycal »

Naperville wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:53 pm
No matter what the aftermarket is, or what sprint runs are, I would hope that Spyderco is looking in to these and seeing whether or not they are leaving a lot of sales on the table.

If for ex I have a 204p sale of 300 to 500 knives and they sell out in hours, is Spyderco leaving 1500 to 3000 knives potentially on the table? If so, then who other than those in the secondary market benefit? It surely does not benefit Spyderco, the collector, or general customer to be shut out of the market. THIS is where a custom shop with a six month run on "sprint runs" makes sense as everyone gets to buy one.

Rare knives in the low to mid tier do not make sense.

I am not going to pretend I know anything about this, but maybe it does. Maybe this type of situation does create an increased demand for Spyderco product over all. People see there is money to be made on secondary market, driving demand that wouldn't be there otherwise. Just maybe it falls under the 'no such thing as bad publicity'.

Sorry, maybe this was already said. I only skimmed over this topic...
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#108

Post by The Meat man »

jtoler_9 wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:42 pm
I feel the same way with the free market. It’s never going to be “fair” to everyone. I’m not going to get what I want at the price I want it at everytime. So I don’t think about it. I don’t care what other people do with their money and stuff. I don’t feel it’s any of my business. Thus my position that the aftermarket isn’t abysmal. It simply is what it is.

Spot on. I could not agree more.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#109

Post by guywithopinion »

Naperville wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:53 pm
If for ex I have a 204p sale of 300 to 500 knives and they sell out in hours, is Spyderco leaving 1500 to 3000 knives potentially on the table? If so, then who other than those in the secondary market benefit? It surely does not benefit Spyderco, the collector, or general customer to be shut out of the market.
That seems debatable. I suspect they could not sell 500 knives in minutes to hours if everyone knew there were 2500 more coming eventually. I also suspect collectors would be less interested in collecting if everything was easy to get and their collection had practically no chance of increasing in value.

I think there are some real-world examples one can look at. The CF/M4 exclusive PM2 that was re-released has been languishing. But they sold out fairly quickly initially and my impression is they had some rise in price on the secondary market after they were gone. Any secondary gains would be wiped out by the re-release though, and KW is stuck with them for months now.

The Maxamet models also seem interesting. Because they were not expected to be limited, I suspect they did not fly off the shelves as soon as they dropped. But now that most of them are gone with no clear sign of returning, they bring more on the secondary market (at least the PM2). The Maxamet Manix 2 LW though doesn't, because for whatever reason it is still available.

The perceived scarcity likely sells the knives much faster, and is quite possibly much more beneficial to both Spyderco and collectors. The general consumer may take it on the chin though.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#110

Post by Naperville »

guywithopinion wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:45 pm
Naperville wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:53 pm
If for ex I have a 204p sale of 300 to 500 knives and they sell out in hours, is Spyderco leaving 1500 to 3000 knives potentially on the table? If so, then who other than those in the secondary market benefit? It surely does not benefit Spyderco, the collector, or general customer to be shut out of the market.
That seems debatable. I suspect they could not sell 500 knives in minutes to hours if everyone knew there were 2500 more coming eventually. I also suspect collectors would be less interested in collecting if everything was easy to get and their collection had practically no chance of increasing in value.

I think there are some real-world examples one can look at. The CF/M4 exclusive PM2 that was re-released has been languishing. But they sold out fairly quickly initially and my impression is they had some rise in price on the secondary market after they were gone. Any secondary gains would be wiped out by the re-release though, and KW is stuck with them for months now.

The Maxamet models also seem interesting. Because they were not expected to be limited, I suspect they did not fly off the shelves as soon as they dropped. But now that most of them are gone with no clear sign of returning, they bring more on the secondary market (at least the PM2). The Maxamet Manix 2 LW though doesn't, because for whatever reason it is still available.

The perceived scarcity likely sells the knives much faster, and is quite possibly much more beneficial to both Spyderco and collectors. The general consumer may take it on the chin though.
I guarantee YOU are not going to retire on whatever you make by buying and selling knives, unless you start spending $5,000 to $20,000 per copy. All of this talk abt collectables is utter nonsense. Somebody making $75 to $150 on a flip is not the same thing as Spyderco making $250,000+ on selling more knives to the community for one of their flips. It is all abt getting knives in to their customers hands and an unfilled order is B.S.

YES, I collect knives too and have around 75 of them that new cost me over $17k, though if any of they went up in value EVER, I'd be shocked.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#111

Post by MichaelScott »

Naperville, you wrote: “All of this talk abt collectables is utter nonsense.”

I really don’t know what you mean. There are many collectors, so why talking about it would be nonsense doesn’t make sense.

And: “Somebody making $75 to $150 on a flip is not the same thing as Spyderco making $250,000+ on selling more knives to the community for one of their flips. It is all abt getting knives in to their customers hands and an unfilled order is B.S.”

No, it’s not the same thing, but your conclusion doesn’t seem to follow from that or make sense.

Sorry, but your arguments escape me. Perhaps you might clarify.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#112

Post by guywithopinion »

I doubt they make a limited quantity of a sprint or exclusive, then just sit around doing nothing. If they made more of each run, they'd likely make fewer sprints and possibly make less money as those sprints would not sell as fast. Also plenty of sprints and exclusives don't sell out in hours or even months. If they'd made more of those instead of moving on to other production they might be worse off.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#113

Post by Naperville »

MichaelScott wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:53 pm
Naperville, you wrote: “All of this talk abt collectables is utter nonsense.”

I really don’t know what you mean. There are many collectors, so why talking about it would be nonsense doesn’t make sense.

And: “Somebody making $75 to $150 on a flip is not the same thing as Spyderco making $250,000+ on selling more knives to the community for one of their flips. It is all abt getting knives in to their customers hands and an unfilled order is B.S.”

No, it’s not the same thing, but your conclusion doesn’t seem to follow from that or make sense.

Sorry, but your arguments escape me. Perhaps you might clarify.
If "it does not follow" maybe you and I need to see why Spyderco is in business.

I'd like to see their mission statement. I doubt that it says "To build a secondary market for our knives at a loss to potential sales."
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#114

Post by Naperville »

I just used the contact page to obtain Spydercos Mission Statement. I'll post the full statement here IF they send it to me.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#115

Post by Tucson Tom »

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:32 pm
I've spent 3 years on this forum learning from and helping other forumites... Many, many forumites do the exact things you accuse me of, yet you don't personally attack them. So what exactly have I done to bother you so much besides exist? Any time you had a question on this forum I offered my friendly opinion. I live in a city, work an office job, my knives are mostly relegated to opening packages and other light duty tasks. I don't live a lifestyle that requires me to hard use a knife. I buy knives because I like them and I sometimes take a few pictures. This harms no one, my follower count is quite small compared to other forumites who also have Instagram. I think this is the third time you have personally attacked me/called me out. I get it you don't like me, but why waste your time bashing me?
Who? What? Wait? Hold on, come back. I never said anything bad to you did I?

I clearly missed something.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#116

Post by ChrisinHove »

guywithopinion wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:22 pm
I doubt they make a limited quantity of a sprint or exclusive, then just sit around doing nothing. If they made more of each run, they'd likely make fewer sprints and possibly make less money as those sprints would not sell as fast. Also plenty of sprints and exclusives don't sell out in hours or even months. If they'd made more of those instead of moving on to other production they might be worse off.
That may well be the point. Perhaps (some or all) the Sprints & Exclusives are less profitable per unit to Spyderco than the standard models, in which case limited production runs make much more sense.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#117

Post by SG89 »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:10 pm

I clearly missed something.
My post was directed towards another forum member... His post was redacted by Kristi... The matter has been resolved.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#118

Post by The Deacon »

LRR wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:28 am
Gotta say, I don’t understand sprint marketing. I kind of get the limited quantities if it’s exclusive to one dealer, however why make such a limited number if it’s a general run for all dealers. If you can make 500, you can make 1000. There was a time that I stopped following Spyderco and walked away because of sprint runs.

Risk may be one reason. Making, or in the case of Exclusives commissioning, 500 pieces of something when you're dead certain you can sell 500 is a lot less risky than making or commissioning 1000 pieces of something when you think you might be able to sell 1000. Interest in Sprint Runs and Exclusives is sometimes inversely proportionate to run size. Small runs generate a lot of interest, large runs not always so much. FWIW, Exclusives always give the party that commissions them the right to commission a second run of the same knife that rarely ever happens.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#119

Post by guywithopinion »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:07 am
guywithopinion wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:22 pm
I doubt they make a limited quantity of a sprint or exclusive, then just sit around doing nothing. If they made more of each run, they'd likely make fewer sprints and possibly make less money as those sprints would not sell as fast. Also plenty of sprints and exclusives don't sell out in hours or even months. If they'd made more of those instead of moving on to other production they might be worse off.
That may well be the point. Perhaps (some or all) the Sprints & Exclusives are less profitable per unit to Spyderco than the standard models, in which case limited production runs make much more sense.
That could be true, though I assume they keep up with demand for regular models either way (except maxamet). I meant more they could make 600 brown/fde 204p para 3s, 1200 Rex 45s, 1200 Jade m4s, and have each one sell out in hours to a few days. Or they could make 3000 of just one of those, have everyone who wants one get one, and sell them much more slowly because no one feels they need to act fast. I guess it's better for people who want one, but it's worse for Spyderco and it's worse for collectors.
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Re: Sprint Runs and the Abysmal Aftermarket.

#120

Post by MichaelScott »

guywithopinion wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:19 pm
ChrisinHove wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:07 am
guywithopinion wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:22 pm
I doubt they make a limited quantity of a sprint or exclusive, then just sit around doing nothing. If they made more of each run, they'd likely make fewer sprints and possibly make less money as those sprints would not sell as fast. Also plenty of sprints and exclusives don't sell out in hours or even months. If they'd made more of those instead of moving on to other production they might be worse off.
That may well be the point. Perhaps (some or all) the Sprints & Exclusives are less profitable per unit to Spyderco than the standard models, in which case limited production runs make much more sense.
That could be true, though I assume they keep up with demand for regular models either way (except maxamet). I meant more they could make 600 brown/fde 204p para 3s, 1200 Rex 45s, 1200 Jade m4s, and have each one sell out in hours to a few days. Or they could make 3000 of just one of those, have everyone who wants one get one, and sell them much more slowly because no one feels they need to act fast. I guess it's better for people who want one, but it's worse for Spyderco and it's worse for collectors.
But that would reduce the choice from three knives to one. Bad for everyone.
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