Why did the market want heavier knives?

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vivi
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Why did the market want heavier knives?

#1

Post by vivi »

There are two lines of knives I'm fond of, that I noticed were made heavier years ago. Enduras and Voyagers.

Endura 3's had no liners, and I've never heard of their handles breaking. The Endura 4 added liners.

The Voyager line used to use pinned construction, lock backs and linerless handles, much like the Endura 3. These days they have thick aluminum liners that add weight.

Other knives went through similar changes, or new models replaced lighter, older knives.

Regrettably I got into nice knives right around when the Endura 4 was phasing out the Endura 3, and my preferences lean towards lightweight, large folders.

These days it seems you can get lightweight small knives, or heavy big knives, but few makers care to make large, lightweight folders.

IMO the ideal pocket knife is about 4-5" of blade, and weighs under 4oz. Big blades are much more versatile for my uses, but I want an EDC that is light enough to clip to running shorts or swim trunks in the summer, so something like a Tatanka is too heavy.

No one wants to make knives like this it seems. The old Catcherman fits the bill, which is one reason I'd like to see a sprint. The 5" blade Voyager that weighs as much as the current 4" version sounds nice too. I'm currently trying to hunt down both on the secondary market.

Why?

What was "wrong" with Endura 3's and old Voyagers that people considered extra weight to be a good thing? IMO adding liners to either model did nothing to improve them for how I use them
Do you disagree? Do you think adding liners made the Endura better?

Does anyone know of some current offerings from companies that are 4"+ bladed folders that weigh under 4oz? Preferably a lockback? The new plastic handle Buck 110 at 2oz sounds dreamy if it had a hole, pocket clip and better positioning for the lock release.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#2

Post by Bill1170 »

The Endura 3 used a barrel bolt to secure the pocket clip. Adding stainless liners allowed Spyderco the option of offering four way clip anchor points.

There was nothing wrong (for me) with the linerless construction of the Endura 3. I enjoy it in my Pacific Salt even now.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#3

Post by vivi »

Bill1170 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:17 pm
The Endura 3 used a barrel bolt to secure the pocket clip. Adding stainless liners allowed Spyderco the option of offering four way clip anchor points.

There was nothing wrong (for me) with the linerless construction of the Endura 3. I enjoy it in my Pacific Salt even now.
Yep, that is a benefit the liners for some folks.

As a tip up only sort of guy, this was not a benefit for me. I like the barrel bolt clips. Two coins to remove the clip instead of a screwdriver bit you won't have on you unless you're in your garage. They never come loose. No need for an extra hole in the knife for lanyards, etc. Simple.

Luckily Spyderco has essentially kept the Endura 3 around in the form of the Pacific Salt.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#4

Post by TomAiello »

The Manix LW and Native LW seem to be working, so it's not always that the market wants heavier knives.

But...I think that a knife with a heavier feel in the hand sometimes feels like it's "better" or "higher quality", and people may be responding to that feeling (even when it's unjustified).
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#5

Post by vivi »

TomAiello wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:26 pm
The Manix LW and Native LW seem to be working, so it's not always that the market wants heavier knives.

But...I think that a knife with a heavier feel in the hand sometimes feels like it's "better" or "higher quality", and people may be responding to that feeling (even when it's unjustified).
The Manix is funny because it seems to show, along with knives like the Benchmade Bugout, that the trend may be reversing.

Light knives still seem trendier in 3" or less bladed knives, but the Manix XL is an exception to that trend. It is much lighter than the original that was introduced when '?"bigger is better" seemed to be the mantra.

I was happily surprised when Spyderco announced the Manix 2 was 3mm stock instead of 4mm.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#6

Post by Bill1170 »

Vivi wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:22 pm
Bill1170 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:17 pm
The Endura 3 used a barrel bolt to secure the pocket clip. Adding stainless liners allowed Spyderco the option of offering four way clip anchor points.

There was nothing wrong (for me) with the linerless construction of the Endura 3. I enjoy it in my Pacific Salt even now.
Yep, that is a benefit the liners for some folks.

As a tip up only sort of guy, this was not a benefit for me. I like the barrel bolt clips. Two coins to remove the clip instead of a screwdriver bit you won't have on you unless you're in your garage. They never come loose. No need for an extra hole in the knife for lanyards, etc. Simple.

Luckily Spyderco has essentially kept the Endura 3 around in the form of the Pacific Salt.
I also like the barrel bolt clips. They are simple and reliable. The wire clips are now my favorite, though suited best for lighter knives. I personally prefer lighter knives, but a FFG E4 isn’t really that heavy, not compared to the average 3.75” bladed folder.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#7

Post by knivesandbooks »

So, I think I'm niche. With frn I prefer liners. Delica/endura I want with liners.I much prefer the added rigidity of these over knives like the pacific salt and spyderhawk. However, with g10, I prefer linerless. I've always been much more impressed by linerless g10 models. I'm not worried about strength. Weight I think about but I'd rather have the model done well then be either too heavy or too light. My opinions may change once I get my hands on a Manix 2 lw, which I've suddenly got a strong desire to own or once I finally get the native 5 salt when it finally drops.
Last edited by knivesandbooks on Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#8

Post by vivi »

I used to hate the feel of an unlined FRN knife. If I squeezed it really hard in my hands I could make it flex and bend.

At one point I acquired a first run Pacific Salt as a beater. I didn't plan to ever EDC one over mynicer knives like a C95 Manix or Police 3 with their G10 and full steel liners.

Over the years that construction style grew on me, and I strongly prefer it to G10 over steel liners. Not only is it light, but the corners are generally more rounded, fewer parts involved, etc.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#9

Post by knivesandbooks »

I do enjoy the simplicity of a linerless frn lockback. I think my opinion may change once I can get a native or manix lw becusse they have thicker handles. Just need to wait for the money to come in. I will say, now that I've been carrying slimmer, lighter knives, it feels like an ordeal putting something heavier in pocket. That's why I traded the Shaman. It felt darn good to use but going from a rhino, delica, or even police 4 to that was rough. Even my beloved Slsyz Bowie has been getting sidelined. I've just been grabbing my Spydiechef instead.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#10

Post by embry386 »

I'm another person who would really like to see some large and lightweight knives offered by Spyderco. I have small emough hands that smaller knives work for me, and the Native is a favorite of mine, but I really want a long thin lightweight knife to pair it with. Vivi's 4-5 inch range sounds perfect.
Vivi wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:22 pm
Bill1170 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:17 pm
The Endura 3 used a barrel bolt to secure the pocket clip. Adding stainless liners allowed Spyderco the option of offering four way clip anchor points.

There was nothing wrong (for me) with the linerless construction of the Endura 3. I enjoy it in my Pacific Salt even now.
Yep, that is a benefit the liners for some folks.

As a tip up only sort of guy, this was not a benefit for me. I like the barrel bolt clips. Two coins to remove the clip instead of a screwdriver bit you won't have on you unless you're in your garage. They never come loose. No need for an extra hole in the knife for lanyards, etc. Simple.

Luckily Spyderco has essentially kept the Endura 3 around in the form of the Pacific Salt.
The Native LW has a 4-way clip and no liners; I don't see why the Endura needs liners in order to have a 4-way clip... is there something I'm not getting, here? And I don't see why they need liners for extra sturdiness or whatever, either. The Native LW is linerless and feels sturdy like a tank. I'd be more worried about snapping the tip off before worrying that the handle would malfunction.

I like my Endura fine, but its weight keeps it from being a real outstanding knife for me. If I had to sell one of my collection, it'd be the first to go. I've been looking at the linerless gen 3 Enduras and considering trying them, but they're all saber-ground instead of flat-ground, and I hate that. (Guess I could buy one and regrind it...) And the blade-to-handle ratio isn't that great either, and overall it's just too much knife with too little blade to make it worthwhile to carry much. Had high hopes for the new FRN Police, but now Sal has said it's got liners too, so, I'm still on the lookout for the perfect large knife.

Kind of hoping that the Chief gets to be as popular as the Native and that it'll get an FRN version made that's more to my tastes.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#11

Post by knivesandbooks »

Just want to throw in, despite the frn police having liners, it will still be very lightweight. Surely less than 4oz. And it will be so nice to finally have a big ol' slicer. Not that the millie isn't. But the police 4 is outstanding. I'm hoping it will get both the hap40 treatment and the lc200n. I'm buying 2 when they hit.

Sorry to hijack this for a second. I'm just so hyped about that knife.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#12

Post by Doc Dan »

Light is good. I carry a Manix 2 LW at least once a day. I would not mind seeing a Manix 2 XL LW (preferably a back lock but the CBBL is okay).
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#13

Post by knivesandbooks »

I've been hoping for a lw manix backlock (I suppose an xl lw manix backlock would be good too, hadn't considered that). But then I wonder if it would sell well since there is already the cbbl lw. I think many spyderco fans prefer backlocks but that's speculation and says nothing to the larger market.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#14

Post by vivi »

knivesandbooks wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:20 pm
Just want to throw in, despite the frn police having liners, it will still be very lightweight. Surely less than 4oz. And it will be so nice to finally have a big ol' slicer. Not that the millie isn't. But the police 4 is outstanding. I'm hoping it will get both the hap40 treatment and the lc200n. I'm buying 2 when they hit.

Sorry to hijack this for a second. I'm just so hyped about that knife.
I am too. I expect it to become my favorite knife if they release it in stainless.

Still, knowing the Catcherman has a longer blade and weighs potentially over an ounce less, I can't help but wonder what could be :)
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#15

Post by vivi »

Doc Dan wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:29 pm
Light is good. I carry a Manix 2 LW at least once a day. I would not mind seeing a Manix 2 XL LW (preferably a back lock but the CBBL is okay).
I wanted one for a long time. The Large Voyager fills that role for me now. It's just as tanky feeling as my Manix XL DLC, but weighs a full ounce less, and has no thumb ramp to get in the way. I prefer the handle contours and opening hole of my Manix, but weight trumps those for me.

Drives me crazy seeing 20 mini-manix sprints a year while the XL is forgotten.

I gave the mini version multiple tries and it's too small and doesn't have the same grip security as the regular Manix.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#16

Post by NoFair »

It gives an impression of being heavy duty, but my most abused folder is a Pac Salt and it's still going strong ;)

With liners I prefer nested ones since they add a bit of stiffness and makes it easier to attach a clip while adding little weight. One of the reasons I mostly carry a Military or Pac Salt when carrying larger folders.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#17

Post by The Deacon »

I don't think the market really "wanted" heavier knives, I think increased weight was an unintended consequence of providing three things the market did want, tip down carry, rigidity, and all screw construction. I recall there being a number of folks who disliked FRN handles because they lot of complaints that unlined FRN handles flexed too much.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#18

Post by ThePeacent »

Well surely the tendency seems to have been "increasing weight" for the last 20 years, :confused:
but as you say we're fortunate that it appears to be reversing and companies realise that.

Cold Steel with their 4inch Broken Skull, going linerless on their Recon series since 2017, and thinning of the handles and making linerless G10 in the Talwars, Hold Outs, Espadas, and newer models like the 2018 Storm Cloud, Frenzy or Luzon :cool:

Benchmade with their Bugout (following the lines of the 520/531) and new for 2018 Fact :o

Buck with their new 110 Lightweight and soon to be released 112 Lightweight, all linerless, and under 2.5 oz. in a variety of steels and colors :)

I hope this trend continues and Sal delves into the linerless, lightweight big bladed knives realm (what the Tatanka could have been without liners, or the new linerless Police 4, a full G10 or FRN handled XL Caribbean that's in the works right now, etc.) :rolleyes:
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#19

Post by Evil D »

I'm not sure anyone asked for more weight, they asked for a stronger knife. The Salts are very durable but the same knife with steel liners will be that much more durable. They also flex less. It's a perception thing. I suspect much of it had to do with mounting clips, so now that we're seeing helicoils like the new lightweights are using for clip screws maybe we'll see less full linered knives. I would certainly welcome more solid G10.
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Re: Why did the market want heavier knives?

#20

Post by curlyhairedboy »

I'd reckon a lot of revision goes into the sub-4" market due to that being a fairly common length restriction. Same thing with the Para 3 sprints - apparently there's a ton of pent up demand for PM2 that's legal in more restrictive areas. I've seen a lot of the Para 3 sprints moving VERY fast.

I know that I would prefer liners in a knife with a blade longer than 4 inches, though. FRN is plenty strong, but having steel liners helps spread the cutting force more evenly along the handle without causing higher levels of flex closer to the pivot.
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