Why did the market want heavier knives?

[Daveho]

How does FRNor G10 fail when it does let go?
I’m betting it let’s go suddenly and if that’s the case I’d like liners there to support the scales

I haven't seen either fail, I'd imagine they crack and snap. We did have a guy break the blade off a Manix 2 LW when it first came out but the handle was fine. I've done some fairly hard use with one and the only issue I had with it was hot spots from how square the handle is.

True, I’m sure if you use knives as intended you never have an issue.
But watching folk on YouTube hammer knives into trees and standing/bouncing on them... common sense comes cheap but ain’t that’s common.

Yeah it's a touchy subject. I actually talked some trash about Jim Anderson once when he did a hard use test on a Manix 2 because I just didn't see the point. Now I've come to understand that it's beneficial to know what a tool's breaking point is so I would actually like to know how these materials fail even if I never push them that far. Some of it is just senseless abuse for the sake of getting video views but a proper test format can tell us a lot of useful information.

Is it useful though?
in that situation are linerless folders the correct tool for the job, personally I don’t think so however that’s because that isn’t something I value.
For example when I built the engine for my DC2 I’ve assembled components and machining tolerances so the engine will reliably take revving to 11k however the design of the engine overall and the tune have the engine only making power to 8.5k so there is nothing to gain to flog it beyond that.
It strikes me as breaking knives for the sake of breaking knives.

But that’s just my useage..
And for what it’s worth here we are one day from spring and still have -4c degree nights.

[NoFair]

As has been stated, the Native5LW and Manix2LW are both linerless. Also the Manix Backlock and Native5 are both linerless G10 knives.

I hope to see similar construction used in models in my desired size range. Some of the first Spydercos I feel in love with were the original Millie, Paramilitary and Yojimbo. G10 scaled knives with nested, or no liners.

Those single liner Millies were feathers. The size to weight ratio and ergonomics of that knife are basically why I'm into Spyderco.

The best is the S30V CF Millie with just the single liner and still very stiff because of the CF :D

[The Mastiff]

You should give rock climbing a shot, it's one of the best ways to get a workout!

Too old and wore out now. When I was young I climbed everything I could. Cliffs, spires, buttes, whatever was nearby. Then I learned what real rock climbing was and saw how specialized it got. I saw a guy resting while hanging from a rock by one hand and saw how they got up overhangs and decided if it wasn't already climbed and set up with ropes and safe ways down I don't need to be there. I wasn't built for that anyways. Too thick and heavy. :)

Joe

[Evil D]

Is it useful though?

More interesting than useful, but if a guy takes a knife and batons through hardwood with it and the lock isn't effected then I feel extra certain that it'll take anything I can throw at it. It's less useful for a knife that you should know from the start isn't built for harder uses, but with FRN for example I'd like to know if it's going to stretch and deform or if it'll just crack and snap. It isn't necessarily a useful thing to know, it's just interesting to me.

[TomAiello]

If I was into rock climbing I might sweat the difference in half ounces but I'm not and glad of it. :)

I usually have my Chaparral when I'm rock climbing, but occasionally I forget to switch and the Manix 2 goes climbing instead.

[BravoTango]

I don't think anyone really wanted heavier, however I can see how many folks value the rigidity of liners, including myself. The Endura 4 is still a VERY lightweight knife in my opinion.

The E4 is a light knife for the size, but the E3 is lighter and meets all my needs. So for me, the liners in an Endura would be like adding steel liners to my lightweight running shoes. Yeah, they'll still be lighter than my winter boots....but why not take the liners out and enjoy an even lighter shoe with no performance sacrifices? So I buy Pacific Salts instead of E4 sprints.

I hear where you're coming from, and if you're doing something daily like humping a huge rucksack 8-15 miles, and "ounces are pounds and pounds are pain" is a rule to follow, I totally get it, but the salt being 3.0oz and the E4 is 3.67oz (BladeHQ numbers) at less than an ounces difference, I will take the liners all day long. Diferent strokes for diferent folks I guess.

[Halfneck]

Some of it I attribute to perceived needs for a heavy duty knife for service members.

I carried a Delica 1 during my time as an EMT an Soldier an never had any issues with it being linerless. I was concerned about the plastic clip snapping, but it never happened. The Delica 3 had a better clip, but the blocky handle did not feel as good in my hand. When the Delica 4 came out I didn't mind the extra weight as the ergonomics were similar to the 1st model, and all the overall improvements made it a great knife.

[Evil D]

What exactly is the weight difference between the E3 and E4 anyway? How much weight do the liners add? I can say for certain I can feel the difference between a skeletonized Manix 2 and a non skeletonized Manix 2...the weight and balance are easy to feel. The Endura liners are skeletonized (well, drilled) aren't they? Maybe Vivi needs to take a E4 and hog out the liners like I did on my Manix 2....?



I could have done away with the webbing and ground them out even closer to the edges. I think I could get them down to where they barely effect weight at all and basically only surround the pivot and provide a place to mount a clip.

[vivi]

What exactly is the weight difference between the E3 and E4 anyway? How much weight do the liners add? I can say for certain I can feel the difference between a skeletonized Manix 2 and a non skeletonized Manix 2...the weight and balance are easy to feel. The Endura liners are skeletonized (well, drilled) aren't they? Maybe Vivi needs to take a E4 and hog out the liners like I did on my Manix 2....?



I could have done away with the webbing and ground them out even closer to the edges. I think I could get them down to where they barely effect weight at all and basically only surround the pivot and provide a place to mount a clip.

I'd probably try something like that if I liked the E4 handle. That first finger groove is too small for both my index and middle finger. Gripped with just the index finger there it feels like I'm holding it too far from the edge for optimal control.

I've given the Endura 4 a shot four different times. VG10, ZDP, G10 foliage green sprint and a FFG FRN when those first hit the market. I've concluded that I will never understand its handle. The E3 handle makes perfect sense to me. The E4 never has.

Now the Police 3 back-ups I'm sitting on....this would be an awesome mod to do to those! I'd love to pick up the Police 4 since they trimmed the weight down to 4.5oz, but I need a more stainless steel.

I can stand going heavier if I get something out of it. Like a Police offers me a roomier grip and longer blade. But an Endura 4, for me, has nothing on my Pacific Salts besides the full flat grind.

[ugaarguy]

As others have already noted, I don't think the market wanted heavier knives so much as the market wanted sturdier knives.

Emerson's heavy duty use claims in the '90's are some of my earliest memories of this. Then Cold Steel starting pushing their abuse antics with the Proof videos around the same time. Then Chris Reeve had that run of 14 manufacturing quality awards at Blade, which no doubt helped the Sebenza gain the cult status it has now. With the Sebenza a 3.7" blade in titanium slab handles at 4.7 oz became normal and acceptable. Then KAI USA decided to make Cadillac badged giant SUVs ... I mean, launched ZT Knives in '06. Then there was the Hinderer XM craze, and then the Medford "folding sculpture" fad. All of this coincided with, and probably fed off of, the YouTube 'Let's copy the Cold Steel Proof videos and do our own stupid torture tests' craze.

The broad general public started expecting to do things we used to consider slight to moderate abuse as normal use of knives. Sal has more or less written on here that Spyderco had to beef up most of their knives to make them at least slightly idiot resistant.

In a few weeks the US will also have been at war for 17 straight years. In 2010 Leatherneck Magazine published an article about the USMC's internal testing of folding knives that were suitable for use as fighting knives. They liked the Benchmade Griptilian and Spyderco Endura, after doing a bit of somewhat abusive testing on them. So, there actually was / is a legitimate market for heavy duty folders, albeit a very limited one.

I find it rather ironic that Cold Steel was an early driving force in more heavily built knives, but now their 3.10 oz "Broken Skull" is one of the lightest 4" blade locking folders currently on the market. Then there are the Al Mar Eagles, which are incredibly light for 4" lock blades, but they're also ridiculously expensive for Micarta and AUS-8. So, you're left with spending $190 to get a Military in G10 and S30V, and living with the 4.20 oz weight to avoid carrying a very different looking CS with rather silly naming, or feeling like you over paid for the Al Mar. Or you can get a ZT 0452CF at 4.40 oz and have S35VN, carbon fiber, and titanium for only $30 more than a Millie - if you can live with flipper only opening.

Enough of my rambling. I'll be hoping for you that the FRN handled Police has a more stainless blade steel whenever it comes out.

[Evil D]

I'd probably try something like that if I liked the E4 handle. That first finger groove is too small for both my index and middle finger. Gripped with just the index finger there it feels like I'm holding it too far from the edge for optimal control.

I'm starting to wonder if my hands aren't bigger than yours because I can't get two fingers in the first groove on a E3 handle, my middle finger lands on the point. I have to grip with just my index finger in the first groove and then the rest of the points kinda line up ok, but like you said it also puts my grip way down on the butt end of the handle and I really don't like that.

[spyderwolf]

The liners added 0.3 oz to the Endura.I doubt anyone can tell the difference by simply holding or carrying the knife.

[demoncase]

Heavy is good.
Heavy is reliable.
If it does not work you can always hit them with it.
(Best said in a thick Russian accent)

[vivi]

I'd probably try something like that if I liked the E4 handle. That first finger groove is too small for both my index and middle finger. Gripped with just the index finger there it feels like I'm holding it too far from the edge for optimal control.

I'm starting to wonder if my hands aren't bigger than yours because I can't get two fingers in the first groove on a E3 handle, my middle finger lands on the point. I have to grip with just my index finger in the first groove and then the rest of the points kinda line up ok, but like you said it also puts my grip way down on the butt end of the handle and I really don't like that.

I would never put my index and middle finger in the first groove on that knife either, not enough space. Same issue I have with every delica iteration. I can try to squeeze all four fingers on the handle and have it feel terrible and have no where to comfortably place my thumb, or use it as a three finger knife.

Here is me holding a Pac Salt and Tasman for reference:



That's a comfortable angle for my thumb joints.



Hand goes to the same spot every time in perfect comfort. On an E4 it just doesn't feel right gripping it like this, especially saber ground versions that are more blade heavy.

The tasman:





I cannot for the life of me understand how a human hand is supposed to comfortably use a thumb ramp placed directly next to where the index finger goes. This hurts my hand to even try to grip my delica based knives like this, much less using the knife.

Same reason I basically refuse to buy Spydercos that depend on an index choil for a four finger grip. They almost always have the thumb ramp placement wrong for me like my Tasman.

Sure you can prop your thumb up on the spine in many cases but then it's in the way of whatever you're cutting.

I prefer designs with zero thumb ramp, like a Native or Voyager, but they're alright when spaced out enough. I like about an inch between my index finger and the tip of my thumb, like so:

[guywithopinion]

I personally don't think the Endura is heavy. But I recently got a Spyderhawk and keep being impressed with how light it feels for how huge it is. It has made me look more closely at carrying my Endura (it's a bit bigger than I need, but it disappears in my pocket and is so light). Anyway, as much as the Endura isn't heavy, the Spyderhawk weight still keeps impressing me. I did look at what other knives use the old Endura handle design. Unfortunately I don't really want a PE H1 knife and I've found I don't have much use for serrated edges. I will probably pull the trigger on another E4 at some point though in a different steel than the VG10 one I have. But I do think I'd pull it a little faster on a linerless one. I can see why they want the liners though. The knife feels sturdier even if it makes no practical difference, and the more normal pocket clip setup is, uh, more normal. Even if the barrel clip is better, it looks odd and dated at first blush.

[Wanimator]

The Cold Steel liners are definitely a strength thing in the FRN handles. There was a definite shift in design philosophy between the new and old Voyagers.

[JD Spydo]

I actually marvel at why so many guys seem to complain about heavier pocket knives. Personally I don't mind them at all. I've been pretty much exclusively EDCing my older Stainless RESCUE model from the ATS-55 era and it's one of the more bulky and heavy knives I've ever EDCed along with my M390 Military model which is considered big for an EDC and it doesn't bother me in the least. The weight factor of a folder or fixed blade either one doesn't make hardly any difference to me at all and I'm 64 years old for crying out loud and they still don't bother me in the least and I always carry two EDC blades daily ( sometimes three depending on the job in front of me). During my High School years I carried Buck model 110 many times and two different stag handled Ka-bars and both of those knives with their super construction weighed more than most knives do in our present time and I never even gave it one thought :rolleyes: .

Even in some ways I kind of have more confidence in a folding knife that has some weight, bulk and rigidity to them. Some of these FRN knives seem to have a bit of flimsy feel to them>> now I realize that feeling is actually false because Spyderco's FRN blades are more reliable than most knives with rugged construction seem to have. Now G-10 is a relatively lighter weight material for as rugged and rigid as it is>> and G-10 is one of my very favorite handle materials but I'll take Micarta over it any day of the week if I can get a knife with a Micarta handle and one of the supersteel blades.

Come on guys!! how in the heck are you going to carry a loaded down back pack in an extreme survival situation if a couple of ounces extra weight of a knife bothers you :rolleyes:

[demoncase]

Come on guys!! how in the heck are you going to carry a loaded down back pack in an extreme survival situation if a couple of ounces extra weight of a knife bothers you :rolleyes:

That's the whole argument in a nutshell.

"Knife X is too heavy for EDC".
*proceeds to load pockets with:
- wallet 3" thick in old receipts, loyalty cards and scraps of paper.
- modern mobile phone that's nearly as big as my first TV,
- stupid single brass knuckle for instagram hand-dump-cred
- a solid titanium flashlight despite only going to Starbucks in broad daylight
- $100 prybar 'just in case'
- Challenge coin despite being a civilian
- Posh 'hank' to put it all on but it's too expensive to actually use as a hanky
.....see what I'm driving at?

I put copper scales on my PM2 and it ended up weighing the same as 2 PM2s.....Say what you like, but I never forgot that it was in my pocket and I never lost it :D

[guywithopinion]

Here's my EDC pry bar and flashlight:



They weigh 1.1 oz combined. If I ever thought I'd have to bug out of the office in an extreme survival situation, I'd just keep that stuff in my car until it was needed. I do carry a big phone, but I bet it weighs less than an old flip phone and a Seiko.

[MichaelScott]

First, what evidence is there that the ”market” favors heavier knives? That’s a supposition that I expect is false. If not, I’d like some actual evidence.

Second, even if that was true, so what? Complaining about an extra two or three ounces is nonsensical. Wear a different pair of shoes and you’ve added more than that. Leave your wrist watch at home. Clean out that fat wallet.

My EDC is an iPhone, wallet, watch, Leatherman Style PS, Fenix AAA flashlight, Ruger EC9c and spare magazine if I go out, and one or two small Spydies. If I were to carry a Para 3 instead of my Lil’ Lum would I notice the weight difference? No, but I might notice the size difference.

Basically, I don’t think it makes any appreciable weight difference to most people if they carry a Chaparral or a military.