Why did the market want heavier knives?

[bearfacedkiller]

I cannot really add anything that has not already been said. While you do occasionally hear someone say they like a little heft in their knives I do not think that those voices were the driving force behind getting liners. It was requests for a 4 way clip and knives that flexed less. Those two things came at a price and that was cost and weight.

As has been stated, the Native5LW and Manix2LW are both linerless. Also the Manix Backlock and Native5 are both linerless G10 knives.

[Woodpuppy]

I guess I have a different tolerance or internal scale for knife weight. From my perspective, none of the spydercos I have are heavy. Biggest I have is a pm2 though. The Benchmade 710HSSR is not heavy; the ZT 301 is. My Damascus and stag Buck 110 is heavy! But it’s a sheath knife, and a sturdy belt stabilizes heavy loads just fine. A little time with CCW and knife weight is a pretty minor thing. A spare mag is considerably thicker and heavier. Where to carry the knife becomes more of an issue as my favorite location (right edge of back back pocket) is an interference fit with my holster at about 4 o’clock IWB or OWB.

The Salt 2 uses stainless steel inserts to allow for 4-way clip mounting with linerless construction. The knife is very light, and as a bonus it’s thicker than a Delica 4. So far it appears to be plenty strong, though I’ve read of pivots loosening up over time.

Personally, I don’t like skinny knife handles unless we’re talking about a dress-up knife, but that would not be a primary edc for me. I’d rather have a compact fat knife like the urban.

[koenigsegg]

I think they messed up the native lw by doing the same thing. I loved my Native FRN with barrel clip

[abbazaba]

I'm stoked to see what the Police4 LW hits the scales at.

[Evil D]

I'm really impressed with how sturdy the Native 5 LW feels, there's little to no flex in the handle. It's also a far more complicated mold than you see on Salts. I believe the Salt 2 has a similar mold but I didn't get to take one apart yet. I think as molds improve and clip mounting options change we'll see less and less steel liners. If they can make a knife just as stiff but with less components and end up with a lighter knife it's a win for everyone. Well...it's a win for everyone except people who can't wrap their minds around a "plastic" knife.

[curlyhairedboy]

Agreed, the Native LW that I've handled - the maxamet version - has all sorts of molded ribbing as reinforcement inside the handle. it's impressive.

[BravoTango]

I don't think anyone really wanted heavier, however I can see how many folks value the rigidity of liners, including myself. The Endura 4 is still a VERY lightweight knife in my opinion.

[Doc Dan]

Rigity is very important. However, with my Native 5, Manix LW, and Manix backlock knives, I think the blade would snap before flex would be a problem. They are not like the Bugout or the old cold steel offerings that are easy to flex.

[vivi]

I'm not sure anyone asked for more weight, they asked for a stronger knife. The Salts are very durable but the same knife with steel liners will be that much more durable. They also flex less. It's a perception thing. I suspect much of it had to do with mounting clips, so now that we're seeing helicoils like the new lightweights are using for clip screws maybe we'll see less full linered knives. I would certainly welcome more solid G10.

In your opinion, what can an Endura 4 do that an Endura 3 cannot?

[vivi]

As has been stated, the Native5LW and Manix2LW are both linerless. Also the Manix Backlock and Native5 are both linerless G10 knives.

I hope to see similar construction used in models in my desired size range. Some of the first Spydercos I feel in love with were the original Millie, Paramilitary and Yojimbo. G10 scaled knives with nested, or no liners.

Those single liner Millies were feathers. The size to weight ratio and ergonomics of that knife are basically why I'm into Spyderco.

[vivi]

I don't think anyone really wanted heavier, however I can see how many folks value the rigidity of liners, including myself. The Endura 4 is still a VERY lightweight knife in my opinion.

The E4 is a light knife for the size, but the E3 is lighter and meets all my needs. So for me, the liners in an Endura would be like adding steel liners to my lightweight running shoes. Yeah, they'll still be lighter than my winter boots....but why not take the liners out and enjoy an even lighter shoe with no performance sacrifices? So I buy Pacific Salts instead of E4 sprints.

[Evil D]

I'm not sure anyone asked for more weight, they asked for a stronger knife. The Salts are very durable but the same knife with steel liners will be that much more durable. They also flex less. It's a perception thing. I suspect much of it had to do with mounting clips, so now that we're seeing helicoils like the new lightweights are using for clip screws maybe we'll see less full linered knives. I would certainly welcome more solid G10.

In your opinion, what can an Endura 4 do that an Endura 3 cannot?

Realistically speaking, it can mount a clip in 4 positions instead of 2. Technically speaking it's significantly stronger in the pivot due to the steel liners. The question is, at what point does the blade snap or the pivot pin screws shear off, or would the linerless FRN handle fail before then? Either way once you get that far on either knife you've crossed over into wrong tool for the job territory and you should know better.


For the record I'm on your side, I was just answering your question. I'm all for linerless knives, or more specifically the least amount of liner possible...I think the Manix 2 LW is a good example of this, it has minimal liners just around the pivot pin and stop pin, so they add strength where it's needed the most and cut weight everywhere else. As long as you don't rely on the liners for clip mounting it's a perfect compromise.

[Daveho]

How does FRNor G10 fail when it does let go?
I’m betting it let’s go suddenly and if that’s the case I’d like liners there to support the scales

[Evil D]

How does FRNor G10 fail when it does let go?
I’m betting it let’s go suddenly and if that’s the case I’d like liners there to support the scales

I haven't seen either fail, I'd imagine they crack and snap. We did have a guy break the blade off a Manix 2 LW when it first came out but the handle was fine. I've done some fairly hard use with one and the only issue I had with it was hot spots from how square the handle is.

[The Mastiff]

In general I'm all for lightening products meant for daily carry. In reality the difference between my old Enduras and my current ones isn't noticeable in my pocket. I have a few of each and if it was a problem I'd carry the old ones. I like the newer ones a lot better and feel they hit the balance between strength and lightness. I'm usually for liners as long as they are done right. Too heavy and they are a problem but I haven't seen that in Spyderco yet. If I was into rock climbing I might sweat the difference in half ounces but I'm not and glad of it. :)

Joe

[Daveho]

How does FRNor G10 fail when it does let go?
I’m betting it let’s go suddenly and if that’s the case I’d like liners there to support the scales

I haven't seen either fail, I'd imagine they crack and snap. We did have a guy break the blade off a Manix 2 LW when it first came out but the handle was fine. I've done some fairly hard use with one and the only issue I had with it was hot spots from how square the handle is.

True, I’m sure if you use knives as intended you never have an issue.
But watching folk on YouTube hammer knives into trees and standing/bouncing on them... common sense comes cheap but ain’t that’s common.

[Evil D]

How does FRNor G10 fail when it does let go?
I’m betting it let’s go suddenly and if that’s the case I’d like liners there to support the scales

I haven't seen either fail, I'd imagine they crack and snap. We did have a guy break the blade off a Manix 2 LW when it first came out but the handle was fine. I've done some fairly hard use with one and the only issue I had with it was hot spots from how square the handle is.

True, I’m sure if you use knives as intended you never have an issue.
But watching folk on YouTube hammer knives into trees and standing/bouncing on them... common sense comes cheap but ain’t that’s common.

Yeah it's a touchy subject. I actually talked some trash about Jim Anderson once when he did a hard use test on a Manix 2 because I just didn't see the point. Now I've come to understand that it's beneficial to know what a tool's breaking point is so I would actually like to know how these materials fail even if I never push them that far. Some of it is just senseless abuse for the sake of getting video views but a proper test format can tell us a lot of useful information.

[vivi]

In general I'm all for lightening products meant for daily carry. In reality the difference between my old Enduras and my current ones isn't noticeable in my pocket. I have a few of each and if it was a problem I'd carry the old ones. I like the newer ones a lot better and feel they hit the balance between strength and lightness. I'm usually for liners as long as they are done right. Too heavy and they are a problem but I haven't seen that in Spyderco yet. If I was into rock climbing I might sweat the difference in half ounces but I'm not and glad of it. :)

Joe

You should give rock climbing a shot, it's one of the best ways to get a workout! :D

[The Deacon]

I think they messed up the native lw by doing the same thing. I loved my Native FRN with barrel clip

Am sure you're not the only one who did. Still, nothing pleases everyone. Heck there are folks who still lament the phasing out of the integral FRN clip versions of the Delica, Endura, and other early FRN models. As for the barrel bolt clips, I recall some folks didn't like them because the clip would chew up the FRN handle if the bolt got event the slightest bit loose.

How does FRNor G10 fail when it does let go?
I’m betting it let’s go suddenly and if that’s the case I’d like liners there to support the scales

As far as FRN goes, fittings may tear out of it under extreme conditions, you can soften it with excessive heat, but it will never break (unless perhaps you freeze it first).

Some years ago, I had the FRN handle on an Atlantic Salt replaced with Birdseye Maple over ti liners by Steve Rice. He cut the FRN handle into three pieces, two slabs and the backspacer, to use as templates for the liners, scales, and ti backspacer. When he sent me the finished knife, he included the two FRN handle slabs. I bent one, repeatedly, so that one end touched the other. G-10 may be harder to bend, but I'd lay odds it would snap long before bending that far.

[koenigsegg]

I really dont like the new native's clip and no more swedge. Either with wire clip would be better