Idea for "crud proof" pivot..

[koenigsegg]

I would like to see if ptfe orings might work and not reduce action as much.

[knivesandbooks]

The problem with o-rings is that they are quite consumable. If you make them propriatary or specialized to that model, it creates long term difficultues for both the manufacturer/warranty department and the consummer.

[Halfneck]

Interesting idea.

The G&G Hawk sealed pivot was good at keeping stuff out, but people complained about how stiff the ZT MUDD was - Tradeoffs.

[Evil D]

I don't think you can completely stop crud from getting in, and the more you try the harder it becomes to get it back out. Easy in means easy out, it works just like open back pillar construction...it's easy to pack a Military handle full of mud but it's also just as easy to rinse the handle out. If a pivot can be made in a way that makes rinsing as effective as the rest of the handle then crud won't be an issue anymore.

[curlyhairedboy]

I'm curious as to how well the Carribean resists sand... Pretty well, I'd bet. Eager to see when I get one.

[awa54]

Another way would be to introduce O-Rings.

If the blade was machined with O-Ring grooves concentric to the pivot as were the liners you could seal the pivot with O-Rings.

Undoubtedly this would add cost and slow down the action. :)

lol, I was going to suggest "x" rings (like what's in MTC chains) that were fitted to the PB washers outer diameter, would seal things up and still be easy to service, while creating a minimum of drag compared to other seals.

[Zenith]

Maybe I have been lucky, but using IKBS folders during exploration in Sub Sahara Africa in unconventional oil and gas and in the mining industry I have had little to no issues.

Yes sand and crud gets in there but some warm water and dish washing soap has resolved 95% of the issues associated with that. The other 5% is adding some oil or WD40.

Granted I have been using Andre Thorburns approach to IKBS in his folders and my own, maybe that has something to do with it?

I have also had no real issues with slip joints, Chris Reeve, Des Horn, Emerson nor any Spyderco on washers. My Military and Gayle Bradley 1 being my most used.

Kind of makes me think, maybe I have been lucky reading so many people having crud get in their knives that they just cant handle, or maybe I am just too busy using it to care about a slightly gritty action.

[Evil D]

Maybe I have been lucky

I almost never have this problem, but then I don't work in those environments. I was just throwing out ideas. I keep my pivots packed with grease and that tends to create a barrier to keep crud from making it to the pivot.

[zhyla]

I think the issue with this concept is making larger clearances for stuff to wash out just means bigger stuff will get stuck in there. I don’t really see an obvious solution there. Maybe if you narrow your use case to just sand you can limit the particle size, but even sand can get big.

I like how you can clear the Manix 2 lock from the sides. Maybe side access to the pivot/bearing area could be useful too. But that also lets junk in.

Personally, if I’m actively doing something in the ground I go get a mattock or a machete or this really cheap Bowie that I keep just for that.

[wrdwrght]

I’d say that better quality fasteners which allow for safe disassembly mean you don’t need to redesign anything.

Not saying that improved bearing assemblies are a bad idea (though cost would be high until adopted across the industry), but I think Dave has it right, even though it presents a well-known can of worms.

That said, water under a faucet, or an oil bath, or compressed air can get most crud out of a pivot WITHOUT disassembly, at least in my experience.

[Evil D]

I'm thinking more along the lines of easy field cleaning, and I just don't see myself ever taking a knife apart while I'm out in the field. Not saying I'm not all for knives that are easier to take apart, I just don't like the thought of dropping a screw and then having a knife that can't be used.

[koenigsegg]

Field strip tech, no screws to loose

[dj moonbat]

Maybe if you made it out of one piece of completely rigid steel. . .

[Evil D]

I mean why do folders even exist anyway?

[dj moonbat]

I mean why do folders even exist anyway?

Conspiracy by the crud lobby.

[Daveho]

I mean why do folders even exist anyway?

Conspiracy by the crud lobby.

I guess the next thing is,
Does it matter if your pivot has crud in it? I mean if you are using a folder in the wilderness you clearly are fighting an uphill battle so just accepting filth in the pivot may be the way to go until you buy a fixed blade

[Evil D]

I mean why do folders even exist anyway?

Conspiracy by the crud lobby.

I guess the next thing is,
Does it matter if your pivot has crud in it? I mean if you are using a folder in the wilderness you clearly are fighting an uphill battle so just accepting filth in the pivot may be the way to go until you buy a fixed blade

Topics like this really don't benefit much from "just use this instead". If we look at everything like this, nothing would ever innovate and improve. When Sal decided to put a hole in the blade to open it, I'm sure someone told him to just use a thumb stud. It's good that he didn't listen.

As for the wilderness thing, you don't have to be stranded on an island to get crap in your pivot. I started this thread so I didn't derail the other thread about crud in the pivot that is going on right now. We also don't gain anything from "it never happens to me so it must not be necessary" mentalities.

[Daveho]

I mean why do folders even exist anyway?

Conspiracy by the crud lobby.

I guess the next thing is,
Does it matter if your pivot has crud in it? I mean if you are using a folder in the wilderness you clearly are fighting an uphill battle so just accepting filth in the pivot may be the way to go until you buy a fixed blade

Topics like this really don't benefit much from "just use this instead". If we look at everything like this, nothing would ever innovate and improve. When Sal decided to put a hole in the blade to open it, I'm sure someone told him to just use a thumb stud. It's good that he didn't listen.

As for the wilderness thing, you don't have to be stranded on an island to get crap in your pivot. I started this thread so I didn't derail the other thread about crud in the pivot that is going on right now. We also don't gain anything from "it never happens to me so it must not be necessary" mentalities.

Lol you are always so salty about everything, calm down and specify what your actual problems are and we will see if we can help. based on this conversation and what I remember from previous chats
1. Disassembly isn’t an option
2. Folders are suitable for all occasions, different knifes for different situations isn’t an option.
3. Your useage is unspecified so good in all situations.

Any more requests?

[Daveho]

Personally I think a sealed replaceable bearing unit in the pivot would be the way to go, obviously the bearings would gradually wear at the races however the unit would be sealed from intruding external debris so replacements would need to be available.
If I could CAD it would help explain the idea.
I’m thinking a shouldered outer race with a key way to hold the single sealed bearing unit into the blade and a splined internal race with matching pivot bar.
The shoulders prevent over tightening and ensure repeatable specs

[Evil D]

Lol you are always so salty about everything, calm down and specify what your actual problems are and we will see if we can help. based on this conversation and what I remember from previous chats
1. Disassembly isn’t an option
2. Folders are suitable for all occasions, different knifes for different situations isn’t an option.
3. Your useage is unspecified so good in all situations.

Any more requests?

Oh boy here we go lol.

I understand that personality and tone don't convey over the internet very well. I'm a pretty blunt speaker. Maybe you just take my tones that way. I'm not salty, but I definitely don't get why people like you like to **** on ideas so much. You don't add anything to the discussion by shooting it down. If everyone thought this way we'd still be flint knapping. Personally I don't even have a problem with crap in the pivot, but since there's another thread going on right this minute about it, I thought we could brain storm about ideas that could make pivots better. But no, instead we get such sage advice as "just use a fixed blade" despite the fact that I mentioned that in the original post, despite the fact that they're illegal for some people, despite the fact that they just don't carry as well as a folder. If a large bearing pivot is a crap idea, so be it, it's not like I have a dog in this fight either way. What's YOUR idea? Besides avoiding the problem altogether instead of trying to create something and form ideas?