Inusual materials

[JD Spydo]

Hey "supracor" it's interesting that you mentioned Cermet because I actually had a BOKER model a few years back that had a CERMET blade that I ended up trading. But the short time I played with it I actually kind of liked it.

With all the advances in metallurgy and ceramics both it probably won't be too much longer that we will see a "ceramic-steel" combination of some sort that will make a great knife blade. Albeit I wonder how it will compare price wise? But on the other hand some of these newer supersteels are pretty pricey as well.

But I do think you are on to something because with all the changes we've seen in cutlery just in the past 10 years alone I wouldn't be surprised to a see a super knife with a material other than conventional "steel".

Cermets are the new superalloys.

Do you know Katsumi Kitano? He's a japanese custom knifemaker, he is the main inspirer of Rockstead and he's also the developer of ZDP189 with Hitachi and Cowry X with Daido.
You can find a bunch of information of him on russian knife forums.
I suggest you take a look at his work because his knives are nothing short of perfect.
One of his most famous collaboration was made with Dimitry Sinkevich on his famous model, the Technobamboo 2.0.
There are three versions of it: one in ZDP, one in Hap72 and one in H34A, that is a TiN sintered alloy of unknown chemistry, hardened to over 70 hrc, and covered by Tribec©, an amorphous DLC that create rainbow-like colours on the blade, and with a surface hardness of ~7000 hv, that is on the same range of natural diamond. On Zknives there are some data of H34A, the only available.
Kasumi, a russian knife dealer has one of the Technobamboos (in H34A) for ~15000$.
The Technobamboos in H34A are 10 in all the world.

Hey thanks for sharing all that with us "supracor" :) That Japanese guy sounds he would be a great guy for Spyderco to do a collaboration with? I've heard nothing but good about that CowryX but I've yet to test drive a blade made with it. Now this CERMET model I was telling you about that was made by BOKER is one I had all the way back to 2005. So I don't know if it would compete with a newer generation of Cermet>> I would say probably not. But I traded that knife to a fellow forumite here at Spyderville>> it was the good Dr. Hannibal Lecter who still comes here about once a month or so. He's also a big Hawkbill fan like myself. He really liked that knife when he got it from me in a trade and kept it for some time after that too.

It's interesting to note that BOKER is also one of the few big knife companies that has had some modest success with their line of ceramic blades as well>> especially in their culinary line. They may be poised to have a head start on the market with these types of "non-steel" blades when their day comes. I've also heard of that Stellite you mentioned. It seemed like it was either Camillus or one of those other knife companies from the eastern USA that was using that material.

One other company that used those non-steel, exotic materials was the "Boye" knife company. I think it was "Dendritic Cobalt" that they used in some of their blades as far back as 03-04 or thereabout. Very interesting thread for sure :cool:

[supracor]

That Japanese guy sounds he would be a great guy for Spyderco to do a collaboration with?

For sure! It would be a dream :)
But the "guy" is ~80 years old and he make 2 or 3 knives a year :rolleyes:

This is his Hap72 bowie :)

[Daveho]

What benefit is there to be had by doing this-
Sounds like a push for different for the sake of difference sake which in my mind is unnecessary.
If one of these alloys provide a benefit over a steel that would be different but I haven’t seen these benefits mentioned.

[bearfacedkiller]

I have often wondered if we might see a ceramic Spyderco at some point. They already sell ceramic sharpening stones.

Spyderco already uses quite a few materials that technically are not steels by the technical definition. I guess you would call them iron alloys? Maxamet, S110V, ZDP and H1 for example.

The issue with many of the exotic materials is one of toughness. Ceramic has extreme wear resistance but can it support the kind of geometry we as knife geeks want? Can any of these other exotic materials do the same? If the price that must be paid for extreme wear resistance is inferior geometry then I am not all that interested.

Back to the bronze idea, there was some chatter about a bronze Mule at one point but it never came to fruition.

[Daveho]

I just don’t get the want for a bronze knife or similar in place of cheaper superior steel, I mean sure if your a Roman guy and you are putting together an EDC for assaulting Persians...

[steelcity16]

Back to the bronze idea, there was some chatter about a bronze Mule at one point but it never came to fruition.

A mule would have been fun to play around with. I can see many uses for it in non-marring or non-sparking circumstances. I assume an actual knife with Bronze would probably have been more of a show piece or collector piece to most people. I honestly would buy a bronze or BeCu Native LW, but I would probably use it as more of a scraper and beater than a slicer. Certainly would be a cool piece. I say go for it! :D

[steelcity16]

The issue with many of the exotic materials is one of toughness. Ceramic has extreme wear resistance but can it support the kind of geometry we as knife geeks want? Can any of these other exotic materials do the same? If the price that must be paid for extreme wear resistance is inferior geometry then I am not all that interested.

Yeah, I feel like Ceramic would be a nightmare from a Warranty and Return standpoint. You would have a bunch of youtubers batoning a ceramic blade as a "test" and shattering it, then returning it saying it was too fragile. The ceramic kitchen knives my parents and in-laws have had have always broke over time with drops and what not. They are super sharp and stay sharp, but extremely brittle. That said, I would buy a Native LW with pretty much anything as a blade, so I would certainly buy a Ceramic bladed Native LW Salt. I just wouldn't let anyone else use it...especially my wife or in-laws!

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Here is a material idea that fits into this thread, and, if it could be done would really bring alot of great benefits to Spyderco and its customers:

Carbon nanotubes are hollow tube like materials made of pure covalently bonded carbon. The hollow centers of the nanotubes can be filled with other molecules as shown here:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ar040287v

And shown in other places.

The way it was explained to me by a very competent molecular engineer, is that Spyderco could develop a process that would enable them to mass-produce carbon nanotubes filled with iron and other atoms bonded within them. These fullerene wires would then be formed into knives and other cutting instruments with EXTREME POWER to cut through objects. They would NEVER RUST and if you had a knife or sword made of them that had atomic-precision metal filled nanotubes it would self-sharpen or could be made self-sharpening. An Endura or Military or other knife with such a blade would be incredible.

Also, you could make nanotube reinforced FRN handle materials and nanotube reinforced G10 handle materials.

I think this is the route Spyderco should seriously look into for the next generation of blade materials. This will rival ceramic and powder metals.

If Spyderco could develop a functioning, working molecular assembler, they would be able to produce these and other knives with atomic-precision, and, could do it at dirt-cheap costs. Their profits would skyrocket.

[supracor]

What benefit is there to be had by doing this-
Sounds like a push for different for the sake of difference sake which in my mind is unnecessary.
If one of these alloys provide a benefit over a steel that would be different but I haven’t seen these benefits mentioned.

Higher wear resistance, and sometimes higher hardness with the same toughness.

If you want the everlasting working edge you have to push the limits of materials.

[supracor]

The issue with many of the exotic materials is one of toughness. Ceramic has extreme wear resistance but can it support the kind of geometry we as knife geeks want?

There are Cermets and Carboloys that have the same toughness of Maxamet and similia with doubled the wear resistance.

Maxamet it's a steel so to speak.

[Daveho]

What benefit is there to be had by doing this-
Sounds like a push for different for the sake of difference sake which in my mind is unnecessary.
If one of these alloys provide a benefit over a steel that would be different but I haven’t seen these benefits mentioned.

Higher wear resistance, and sometimes higher hardness with the same toughness.

If you want the everlasting working edge you have to push the limits of materials.

Presumably then, cost is the limiting factor as to why we aren’t seeing these materials, so what then, for the average user will these materials bring to the table over a quality steel?
Will the users need a new sharpening system?

[supracor]

What benefit is there to be had by doing this-
Sounds like a push for different for the sake of difference sake which in my mind is unnecessary.
If one of these alloys provide a benefit over a steel that would be different but I haven’t seen these benefits mentioned.

Higher wear resistance, and sometimes higher hardness with the same toughness.

If you want the everlasting working edge you have to push the limits of materials.

Presumably then, cost is the limiting factor as to why we aren’t seeing these materials, so what then, for the average user will these materials bring to the table over a quality steel?
Will the users need a new sharpening system?

WC, TiN, Cr7C3, MoC (between 1700 and 1900 on the knoop hardness scale)are more and more simple to sharpen than VC and NBC (over 2600 on the knoop hardness scale) that are in S110V.
We already know this lesson because we have tried ZDP189, a steel in the same wear resistance range of S90V but times more resharpenable.
With the new technologies we can create TiN sintered alloys that have a good toughness (in respect of ultrahigh alloyed steels like Maxamet, Hap72, and company) but can attain a higher hardness and have a wear resistance times higher.
I've already said it: if you can grind and HT Maxamet and S110V you can start a production with these sintered even tomorrow without an enormous cost.
Are you willing to pay a SS-bonded TiN Native 5 200$ instead of a Maxamet Native 5 for $150?
This depends on you.

[Daveho]

What benefit is there to be had by doing this-
Sounds like a push for different for the sake of difference sake which in my mind is unnecessary.
If one of these alloys provide a benefit over a steel that would be different but I haven’t seen these benefits mentioned.

Higher wear resistance, and sometimes higher hardness with the same toughness.

If you want the everlasting working edge you have to push the limits of materials.

Presumably then, cost is the limiting factor as to why we aren’t seeing these materials, so what then, for the average user will these materials bring to the table over a quality steel?
Will the users need a new sharpening system?

WC, TiN, Cr7C3, MoC (between 1700 and 1900 on the knoop hardness scale)are more and more simple to sharpen than VC and NBC (over 2600 on the knoop hardness scale) that are in S110V.
We already know this lesson because we have tried ZDP189, a steel in the same wear resistance range of S90V but times more resharpenable.
With the new technologies we can create TiN sintered alloys that have a good toughness (in respect of ultrahigh alloyed steels like Maxamet, Hap72, and company) but can attain a higher hardness and have a wear resistance times higher.
I've already said it: if you can grind and HT Maxamet and S110V you can start a production with these sintered even tomorrow without an enormous cost.
Are you willing to pay a SS-bonded TiN Native 5 200$ instead of a Maxamet Native 5 for $150?
This depends on you.

Nope I’m not but many will I’m sure, how’s the supply of these materials?
I’m sure in time these things will be investigated however for me it’s not worth a 25% increase in cost and let’s be real, it will be more than 25% cause it I will be some dumb limited edition only sold to cowboys who’s fathers have them the correct challenge coin in 1992....then sold on eBay for $600

[supracor]

Nope I’m not but many will I’m sure, how’s the supply of these materials?
I’m sure in time these things will be investigated however for me it’s not worth a 25% increase in cost and let’s be real, it will be more than 25% cause it I will be some dumb limited edition only sold to cowboys who’s fathers have them the correct challenge coin in 1992....then sold on eBay for $600

:confused:
I truly don't understand the last part

[Daveho]

Nope I’m not but many will I’m sure, how’s the supply of these materials?
I’m sure in time these things will be investigated however for me it’s not worth a 25% increase in cost and let’s be real, it will be more than 25% cause it I will be some dumb limited edition only sold to cowboys who’s fathers have them the correct challenge coin in 1992....then sold on eBay for $600

:confused:
I truly don't understand the last part

Odd materials and limited production runs are expensive to begin with then get flogged off for more on the secondary market.

[JD Spydo]

That Japanese guy sounds he would be a great guy for Spyderco to do a collaboration with?

For sure! It would be a dream :)
But the "guy" is ~80 years old and he make 2 or 3 knives a year :rolleyes:

This is his Hap72 bowie :)

I've heard that over in Japan the knifemakers and especially the sword makers are considered in the ranks of "nobility". I heard from one source that it takes an apprenticeship of about 8 to 10 years before a swordmaker has paid his dues. They take their metalworking of all kinds very seriously over there in Japan.

I almost just outright laugh at my friends who see my Japan made Spyders and some of them make fun of me for having a Japan made knife>> it blows me away that they are so stupid and don't realize that Japan's high end cutlery may in many cases be the best on the planet. I have no doubt that this Japanese guy your speaking of is probably the equivalent of Bill Moran, Bob Loveless or any number of master bladesmiths in this country>> and maybe even better than all of them.

[supracor]

That Japanese guy sounds he would be a great guy for Spyderco to do a collaboration with?

For sure! It would be a dream :)
But the "guy" is ~80 years old and he make 2 or 3 knives a year :rolleyes:

This is his Hap72 bowie :)

I've heard that over in Japan the knifemakers and especially the sword makers are considered in the ranks of "nobility". I heard from one source that it takes an apprenticeship of about 8 to 10 years before a swordmaker has paid his dues. They take their metalworking of all kinds very seriously over there in Japan.

I almost just outright laugh at my friends who see my Japan made Spyders and some of them make fun of me for having a Japan made knife>> it blows me away that they are so stupid and don't realize that Japan's high end cutlery may in many cases be the best on the planet. I have no doubt that this Japanese guy your speaking of is probably the equivalent of Bill Moran, Bob Loveless or any number of master bladesmiths in this country>> and maybe even better than all of them.

Kitano started making knives at the age of 26, after a serious motorcycle accident that had totally erased his memory.
He didn't remember neither his mother tongue.
Today he is a respected knifemaker, and he has a black belt in Iaido, the martial art of the katana.
His knives, just like those of Loveless continue to influence the Japanese knife world, with its asymmetrical shaped mirror polished blades with extreme hardness.

He has almost no contact with the world of knives, he hasn't an email or a phone number, rarely speaks with other knifemakers such as Koji Hara or Takeshi Saji, and at knives' fairs he often brings only the pictures of knives that he has already sold a long time ago. If you want one of his knives you have to go in Japan, if you're lucky :)

Even now, that he is 80 years old, he continues experimenting with super-hard materials and coatings.
He is more than a knifemaker, he is a life example.

[supracor]

Odd materials and limited production runs are expensive to begin with then get flogged off for more on the secondary market.

It's the cost of progress.

Who would have bet on Maxamet 10 years ago?

[Daveho]

Odd materials and limited production runs are expensive to begin with then get flogged off for more on the secondary market.

It's the cost of progress.

Who would have bet on Maxamet 10 years ago?

Mmm more the cost of limited production.
I mean, considering the jade M4 para 3, none of these are new materials but their short production and single retail outlet makes them costly on the secondary market

[Deadboxhero]

Bronze was used in swords/knives/axes before iron.
I don't think that all these swords are art projects.

But, have you ever used a bronze knife?

Well, when your only option is flintknapping an entire new stone knife/axe every time it was getting dull or using copper/bronze, then yes. The only reason bronze was used was because it was way tougher than stone or glass, and the most important factors, easy to work with and resharpen. The moment even plain iron (not even steel yet) was discovered, all bronze and copper tools were thrown in the bin overnight. So no, I am not interested in a bronze knife, I can't even handle an old low carbon cutlery steel, cut an onion with a bronze blade and it will roll the moment it touches the soft wooden board. No ty.

Moreover, the point of the discussion was not this.
There are several extremely harder/ more wear resistant/ more corrosion resistant materials / metals than common high Vanadium-Chromium-Moly-Tungsten steels, and at the same time they aren't less tough than them.
The point is: why don't try new things?
Yeah, steels are superduper, but hey, taking a step forward does not hurt anyone.

Tell me one of these alloys. Tell me just one that doesn't have significant drawbacks or its incredibly expensive or even coming close to matching the performance of top steels.

The only exotic "alloy" that is worth mentioning is Ferro-Titanit, which is still kind of a borderline steel I guess. 45% volume titanium carbide, which is the hardest metal carbide, encased in a matrix of high chromium stainless steel or just normal steel depending on use. Excellent corrosion resistance for the stainless variant, wear resistance greater than pure tungsten carbide, way better toughness than ceramic blades, easy to preform since the carbide is sintered inside the powder steel, so minimal machining required, hardenable up to 70HRC. We had a sample at my university, we performed a few tests on it during my material science class.
Oh and there's also this new superalloy developed a few weeks back, a mix of 90% platinum and 10% gold with the highest wear resistance of all materials except diamond. Imagine the price lol.

The Ferro Titanit WFN was definitely the most difficult steel to grind I've ever worked with to make a thin cutting knife.

I hardened it to 71.2rc