Nick's question of "why"?

[steelcity16]

Very elaborate question with a very simple answer:

Makers don't ask WHY because consumers will BUY without ever asking themselves WHY.

I think you nailed it here. Spyderco is a business and they need to make money to stay in business, and therefore need to sell a ton of knives.

They basically have three ways to do this from what I can see.

1. Continue to mass produce knives in their current lineup. But for this they need to market and sell to new distributors, dealers, customers, countries etc because most production knives arent out of stock at their current dealers these days. Their factory in Golden need to stay busy and there are only so many consumers out there who will buy an S30V PM2 so they need variety. So ...

2. Make sprints/exclusives of current knives. While this might not fill a need in a utility sense, it fills the wants of many consumers who collect knives like the PM2, Para3, Native (my guilty pleasure), Millie, etc. if there are 1200 people out there who will buy every single PM2 that comes out, it would be silly not to churn out a new model every month when that is 1200 guaranteed sales per month. Especially since there are minimal R&D costs and tooling costs compared to a new design. A lot of people say "why 3V in a folder?" The simple answer is that there are definitely 1200 people out there who would buy a 3V PM2 and another 1200 who would buy a 3V Para 3. It might not be the best choice for how most people view what a pocket knife is supposed to be, but it make sense for some people either as a "hard use folder" or as the 27th PM2 in their collection that they post on Instagram or a new knife/steel to review on youtube to get views.

3. design brand new models. this is the one where i have asked myself "why?". ive always wondered how profitable a brand new design can be if sales are slow. like how many of taiwan models and the non-endura family Seki models have sold enough to cover the costs of r&d, tooling, molds on frn models, etc? i dont believe that spyderco owns the overseas factories, correct? so if not, its not like they need to come up with new things so there is always something in production.

For me the biggest "Why" was the Caribbean line. I don't understand why they wouldn't have focused on trying to "Salt-ize" the popular Golden models like the PM2, Para 3, Military, etc. The only thing I can think of is that they already don't have a problem selling everything that comes out of Golden, so this would basically cannibalize sales of other Golden models and not really add additional revenue, but add a lot of R&D and tooling expenses. Maybe they could build a new USA Factory to churn out more Salts and more sprints/exclusives? :)

Even after probably buying (and selling 75%) over 100 Spydies to try out over the years I still don't have my "perfect" knife. For me it would be a Native LW with a DLC coated blade of 3V, 4V, or Cruwear. The Native LW Salt is the other one that would fill the "perfect" knife slot for me, but I want a blacked out version of it. I could really get by with one Native LW Salt and one Native LW in one of the other steels I mentioned and be perfectly happy and move on to other pursuits...lol. So with all of the 1000's of models and iterations they have produced over the years, I still don't have exactly what I want in an end-all be-all perfect for me EDC. I just have 25-30 that fill various roles. :)

If there is anything you should take away from my ramblings here is that I will buy any 3V and 4V Golden folder no matter how many
people ask "why"? And I bet there are 1,199 others just like me. So even if there are 7 billion other people asking "why?", does it even matter?

[talesk]

I don't know the man but have a lot of respect for his knowledge and the amount of work he's done for the knife community. Nick has handled a LOT of knives ... but may be becoming a little jaded by being over-exposed. Hopefully one day I'll be in his situation.

A lot of his examples of why knives were also very high end knives and can't/shouldn't really be compared to production companies.
Norseman for ~$925
Hinderer for ~$525
Olamic for ~$500

If a knife is truly too vanilla, I feel Nick should offer that as part of his review. Instead of his size comparison it may become an 'exactly the same but not' comparison and review slight the differences - which will actually help consumers a lot when making a purchasing decision.

Let the market weed out 'meh' designs that don't sell. No one is forcing people to buy knives.

I feel the 'why' as a producer is to offer something that will please a consumer and fill their niche need... and there are a lot of people in the world.

For different people Knives are ;
- pocket jewelry
- tool of convenience (EDC)
- hard work tools to earn a living

Sal and team would know better by looking at sales data - but I feel that spyderco answers the 'why' sufficiently before putting knives to production... and produces in proper quantity.

For each category of user they also buy knives à chacun son goût...

For my 'why' as a consumer I look at:

- blade shape
- edge geometry
- lock (or no lock)
- ergonomics
- blade material
- handle material
- color (ORANGE!)
- price

I have many whys and spyderco continuously fills them better than other production shops - which is why they have all my money.

[Eli Chaps]

Ugh...

Sal, I genuinely have the upmost respect for you as a visionary, entrepreneur and as a person. I mean, if people just take the time to read how you worded that initial post, not to mention the grief, warranted or not, Nick helped perpetuate for you over the Teflon washer deal, it really just highlights what a class act you really are.

That said, I've made no secret that I am not a fan of Nick's videos. I personally believe the bulk of YouTube knife reviewers aren't worth the time it takes to make the mouse click to even start their so-called review videos. Further, I genuinely believe they feed the very fever he's supposedly lamenting. People are banging out new designs and variants and people are scarfing them up in no small part to the internet fueling the idea that "knife nuts" have to have the latest and greatest everything.

Just scroll around to find SEF's VG10 thread as an example. Nick himself out right declares, not supposes or floats or suggests, but declares that VG10 is essentially yesterday's news and only belongs in budget folders. And then you're going to produce a video about why makers are putting out so many models and variants? i realize it was mostly focused on the new models but the point remains the same. Somehow Nick's boredom is now the knife maker's fault? They caused him to feel saturated and flustered? The guy has garnered nearly 15 million views on a channel heavily based on reviewing knife models that he never really shows himself using. How can a person build a channel on the back's of makers and then post up a 20min dissertation about the market being saturated? Sigh...

The USA at least is a free-market society. The market will dictate what happens. That's it. That's the only why that matters. Evil D said it well.

[RickC27]

Ugh...

Sal, I genuinely have the upmost respect for you as a visionary, entrepreneur and as a person. I mean, if people just take the time to read how you worded that initial post, not to mention the grief, warranted or not, Nick helped perpetuate for you over the Teflon washer deal, it really just highlights what a class act you really are.

That said, I've made no secret that I am not a fan of Nick's videos. I personally believe the bulk of YouTube knife reviewers aren't worth the time it takes to make the mouse click to even start their so-called review videos. Further, I genuinely believe they feed the very fever he's supposedly lamenting. People are banging out new designs and variants and people are scarfing them up in no small part to the internet fueling the idea that "knife nuts" have to have the latest and greatest everything.

Just scroll around to find SEF's VG10 thread as an example. Nick himself out right declares, not supposes or floats or suggests, but declares that VG10 is essentially yesterday's news and only belongs in budget folders. And then you're going to produce a video about why makers are putting out so many models and variants? i realize it was mostly focused on the new models but the point remains the same. Somehow Nick's boredom is now the knife maker's fault? They caused him to feel saturated and flustered? The guy has garnered nearly 15 million views on a channel heavily based on reviewing knife models that he never really shows himself using. How can a person build a channel on the back's of makers and then post up a 20min dissertation about the market being saturated? Sigh...

The USA at least is a free-market society. The market will dictate what happens. That's it. That's the only why that matters. Evil D said it well.

Though I do find Nick's videos funny, and helpful when it comes to disassembly. He knows his stuff...but I wonder the same thing, you NEVER see him actually use a knife! He talks occasionally about cutting up an apple. For someone like him, who I'm assuming buys a knife, flicks it around a few times, inspects it and then does a "review" on it, maybe takes a few pics and then sells it...the term "review" is irrelevant. No cutting is ever done with the knife...ya know, the whole purpose of a knife. I understand there are some rare knives, sprint runs, etc that people don't want to beat to crap. But to make such a video, and to never actually use your knives...I'm totally with you on this. Maybe if these type of people actually put a knife to use, especially a particular model like a Para 3 that has been released in many different configurations recently, maybe it would make more sense why this is being done. To actually test out all these new steels to see what they are and aren't capable of...besides maybe cutting an apple. I can't stand when people have a knife in 5 different steels in 1 model of a knife and talk about how great each knife is because it is centered and the blade freely drops and it takes pretty pictures. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE STEEL CAN DO!!! They are essentially knife "posers" Yes, it's great when the knife needs no tinkering right out of the box. But if you aren't going to use it...do you really need all the new latest and greatest steels?? Probably not. The Rex45 PM2 is a prime example thus far. Only a handful of people have or will actually use this new/exotic steel. Everyone else will just flick it around and comment on the color and how sharp it is against their finger. For people who really use their knives, all these different steel options being released actually makes sense.

[legOFwhat?]

The only "why" I got out of that was WHY don't I have a Shamen? :D I'm very new having or using a knife that wasn't something handed down from my father (case) or picked up at a local hardware store (Kershaw or Gerber). My dad used/carried Case knives for years and always used them for the same few tasks: Splinter, apple peel, box opener, fingernail clean and occasional whittle with a chew in. Although the few I have from him, since he passed, never get used they sit in beside me in a night stand. I cherish them because he got them for me and his love for the knives he fell in love with back in the 60's and 70's and he has a small sample size to choose from.
I guess in a sense now that I'm a father I'm repeating some of the same actions passing out Spyderco's to family. I love the exotic steels and variety that's available today that you can beat on if you need and still have a working tool. I don't get hung up on opinion but I do try and see both sides and just like Eli Chaps above said the market will dictate what happens. I live and work just a few minutes from the original KFC, they may have a secret recipe but it's always evolving! Variety is still the spice of life!

[bearfacedkiller]

Seems like a simple question on the surface with a complex set of answers. Being concise is not my strong point but I will try. I will try to focus more on Sal's questions than Nick's.

I will first start out by saying that one thing about the knife industry that I find fascinating and one thing about it that I feel is unique is that so many of us come at it from different angles. Most find their way into the knife hobby through another hobby or interest. Knives are often a part of another bigger hobby/interest/occuapation. Maybe you like to cook, maybe you are a tradesman, maybe you like EDC gear, maybe you like pocket jewelry, maybe you are an outdoorsman, maybe you like bushcraft/wilderness survival, maybe you are law enforcement/militay, maybe you are SD practitioner or maybe you are just looking for something to collect. I have yet to have another hobby where folks seem to come at it from so many different angles. This can create an industry that can support an extreme amount of variety. One of the reasons I enjoy spending time on the forums is to read about all the different reasons why people are interested in knives and what it is that they like about them.

How can there be so many framelock flippers? Why? The above reference to fashion is a good one. Framelock flippers are in fashion. It does not seem sustainable to have so many similar knives and at some point the fad will end. At that point the market will level out and it will only support a much more reasonable number of that style of knife. You are also going to always have people/companies that are just trying to profit on the existing successful ideas and current fads. You cannot let that detract form the positive advancements going on in the industry.

Why should Spyderco crank out so many new models? In my opinion that is a silly question. There is no reason to stop innovating and while many new ideas will not be improvements you won’t know unless you try. Only a small percentage of new knives will be game changers. The more new items you put out the higher the probability of getting a game changer. In many ways Spyderco is an idea factory. The best way to find out if a new idea works is to try it out.

Why continue to crank out new models when there are so many already refined designs? Why produce a new model that seems to overlap with an existing model? Not all positive change is an obvious game changer. Often improvements can be incremental and not seem like much at first but over time they can be significant. Subtle changes can lead to significant improvemens over time.

Why crank out so many variations of the same model? How is that sustainable? Collectors. A normal sprint run is 1200 pieces which isn't really that many yet years after a sprint is run you still see brand new sprints offered for sale on the secondary market. I speculate that maybe half of a given sprint run ever gets used. Depending on which sprint it is then may be it is even less. The first few sprints are likely to be used more and as you make more and more variations the later sprints are likely more apt to be just collectors items. I speculate that this is why the earlier sprints are harder to find, they actually got used more. I am a steel geek but sometimes I think we make up a smaller part of this market.

Why collaborate with so many custom makers? Most of these customs are beyond the reach of the average joe like myself. Making affordable versions is a gift to knife geeks like myself. We are big part of the market. Also, back to the idea factory concept, it puts new ideas in the hands of many more people. Sure, most of them will not be game changers but a few will and putting them in as many hands as possible is the best way to find out. If they are not accessible to the general public then you will never find out.

Why do sprints of older models that have already been discontinued? They were obviously discontinued for a reason, probably poor sales. New people enter the hobby all the time. Just because the demand dried up at one time in the past does not mean that there isn't a new market currently interested in that model. You also have collectors interested in another variation of that model.

Nick seems frustrated with the number of new knives that are not filling a new niche or that are not game changers. You are gonna have to have a lot of knives that are not those things in order to have a few knives that are. It is the nature of the beast. It is unrealistic to ask every knife to raise the bar. The road to success is filled with failures. It is also filled with slow and subtle changes that are not always going to have a wow factor. The market is also filled with knives just trying to cash in on existing fads. He has gone too far down the rabbit hole and his expectations have gotten too high and too specific. He has over analyzed it all. All of us knife geeks, including him, need to realize that we are not representative of the knife market as a whole.

So much for being concise. :o

[RickC27]

Very good, well thought out post Darby. Man, a few of you guys really hit the nail on the head with your posts. Hopefully Nick reads this thread.

[bearfacedkiller]

Your too kind.

Well thought out? More like me rambling on. I have the gift of gab and sometimes I must acknowledge that i like the sound of my own voice too much. I would chew your ear off in person.

I agree, there are some great observations in this thread and some that I really agree with.

[RickC27]

Your too kind.

Well thought out? More like me rambling on. I have the gift of gab and sometimes I must acknowledge that i like the sound of my own voice too much. I would chew your ear off in person.

I agree, there are some great observations in this thread and some that I really agree with.

If you sound like Morgan Freeman or the guy that used to do those Men's Wearhouse commericials, I'd let you chat me up as long as I'm allowed to have a beer in hand!

[Tucson Tom]

I keep thinking about this, and had a few more thoughts, so here we go:

1) Nick. I enjoy his videos, I have sent links to them to friends on occasion. This one could maybe be half as long (TL:DR -- I never would have watched the whole thing if not for Sal asking for comment). Although I in general love his way of narrating, sometimes here he talks too fast and words get blurred together. Too much coffee perhaps.

But he is wound up about something, jaded or frustrated, that isn't bothering me. I don't try to follow the whole knife world. I don't much even listen to the daily news. I don't need all that drama. My advice is to apply your own filter. Ignore the "noise". Focus on what is interesting and significant and don't try to keep on top of everything. If people are churning out endless pointless knives -- just ignore it.

2) Collectors. My own tangent here. I have the collector bug and try to guard against it. I diligently avoid the "get them all" mentality. I also make a point to enjoy what I have -- this is why all of my knives get used and carried. I talk to collectors in other arenas, and several of us have agreed that for a lot of collectors it is about the getting rather than the having. It is the pursuit and the next new thing, the thrill of acquisition, opening that package with the new item -- then it goes into the drawer and the focus moves to the next.

3) Business. For any company, it is about making money and staying in business. I am sort of amazed how many fun and interesting things that Spyderco does that I have to wonder how profitable they are. Clearly Spyderco knows how to run a successful business, but it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they do a lot of things just for the "love of the game". It goes beyond mere business, or it seems that way to me. They cater to the knife nuts, and I am not sure just where that fits into the pie chart, or how big a slice that is in their overall revenue. Whatever the case, I am glad they do sprint runs, try out new and exotic steels, do things like the mule team project. It is all great fun for a guy like me.

4) New things. I am thinking here about what new things I have seen from Spyderco that I am excited about. There are certainly some models that don't appeal to me -- but major league football doesn't appeal to me and huge numbers of people love it, so don't take me as your yard stick -- more power to them and all. The backlock Manix, the Shaman, Rex 45 steel are three things in recent times that I am wild about. I don't own a Para 3, but there is something new that is clearly a great hit -- I'll get one someday perhaps, but it hasn't pushed my button. I guess that saves me money and I spend it elsewhere, which is OK.

5) Creativity. Some people just have a creative bug. They get ideas and those ideas need to find an outlet. I know I am not always typical, so just because I am not excited about something doesn't mean it isn't a great idea and is going to appeal to a lot of people. So a knife that makes me ask "why" may need no explanation for certain other folks. If you are a custom maker, you can afford to fool around and try crazy things -- the only expense is your time and some materials. If you are Spyderco, you have all kinds of other considerations. Any new thing takes production resources from other things. It is exciting that they take risks and try new things -- they seem clever enough to gauge the market and maintain a balance that keeps them in business and us knife AFI's entertained.

[MichaelScott]

Nick ends with what I characterize as his personal, inconsistent tirade with, “Maybe I’m just a jaded jackass.” Maybe this is true.

I listened carefully. I took notes. These are the main ideas Nick put forth:

- “I’m feeling.” I don’t have any rational criteria based on the marketplace or design and materials factors, but I’m not happy.

- “The pocket knife is a solved problem…during the last fifty years the perfect pocket knife for you was already made.” I know this because I know which knives are perfect (for whom) so why bother me with something new. It’s already been done.

- “There are some amazing designs now.” - Forget my last point. There were some new things over the last fifty years. This all somehow makes sense to me.

- “Art, new visions, new designs. These ideas are the most dangerous. Something new, oy! Don’t even try. Why would you do something like that? ... You have to land among the greats?” I’m jaded. I know what is great. It has mostly been done already, so why are you trying? I’m really hard so save your money, talent and aspirations, it’s not gonna work.

- “A knife has to justify it’s own existence.” If I don’t think it should have been made, it probably shouldn’t. The market doesn’t know great from ho-hum so even if it sells like hot cakes, it shouldn’t unless it’s existence is justified. [One has to ask here what constitutes justification and who gets to define it? If people like and buy it and it’s not answering Nick’s “why”, then that doesn’t matter it seems.

- “As a reviewer, I’m tired of the churn.” I’ve seen so many knives that something has got to be really unique and catch my interest or I’m ignoring it.

To me, Nick does seem to be jaded. He wants something different, something he can be excited about for reasons he can’t quite explain. He holds knife makers and designers responsible for supplying something that he can be excited about, or why bother? Market forces, individual likes and dislikes, others’ perceptions of value and uniqueness don’t seem to count. I found his video to be overly long and rambling and very subjective in that he attempts to justify his feelings with vague market and design criteria that he isn’t quite certain about.

I primarily watch a Nick video when he disassembles and reassembles a knife that I am interested in. It’s good to know what to expect if I decide to do that. His “reviews” are, as others have said, pretty useless. They are only different from most other “reviews” on YT due to his injection of personal opinion, for which he is certainly entitled, and his unique accent and constantly flittering hands. I’ve posted my objections to so-called knife reviews here before so I won’t bore you with a repetition.

To me, this is close to a trolling video. He’s asking a very vague question, framed in his own likes and dislikes, posing the actual question of makers, ask yourselves why will Nick like or not like my new knife. I believe most makers have already asked themselves the basic why question of why do I want to make this knife, regardless of what video reviewers will say, but in expectation that it will fill some need or want, and the marketplace will ultimately decide if it is successful.

I remember years back when I was working in San Francisco. The Apple iPad was released to great anticipation and great suspicion. After the crowds had cleared at the downtown Apple store, I walked down one day and bought one. The big question many people asked me was “why”? It’s just the same as the iPhone, just bigger most said. “Who needs that?” If Apple has listened to a Nick equivalent, they wouldn’t have made it in the first place.

Michael
Composed on his iPad.

[CanaBrit]

I saw this vid recently and it immediately made me think of Spyderco.
I've had a few decent knives in the past, mainly from Benchmade, but after a while all benchmade's seem to looks the same (most seem to be a 3-3.5" drop point, all with the same lock). Perfectly good knives, but there's nothing interesting about them.

Spyderco don't seem to do this, I love the variety and weirdness of many of the models. Some have a very specific task, which seems to be where the weird shapes come from, but its also a sign that there is a reason for that product to exist. That's what makes them interesting, and that's why I now have a collection.

Of the knives I have, each one it totally different with a different use. You can't say that about most manufacturer's lineups!
Also, I'm getting to the point that I'll only really buy sprint knives and collaborations, just for the weird steels and interesting designs.
(Caly 3 HAP-40 next)

Keep up the good work guys :)

[steelcity16]

To take my point about 3V/4V/Cruwear a bit further, If you combine the results of the Shaman poll and Manix Backlock poll, nearly 41% voted for either 3V, 4V, or Cruwear. So while there are A LOT of people out there who are constantly downing these steels for folders and asking "WHY on earth do you need a tough steel in a folder...you shouldn't be doing anything rough with a folder...they are for whittling hairs and receipt paper and insta photos and flipping for profits only...blah blah blah", there are A LOT of people saying "Why not?" and that they would be MORE than willing to part with their hard earned money for a blade that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people.

[Sjucaveman]

I like sharp things far beyond the bounds of reason and sensibility!

[ZrowsN1s]

The biggest reason to put out a new knife is 'unique design' something that hasn't existed before. This can be as simple as 'this one has a new steel', 'this one is a different size', or 'this one is orange', and as complicated as 'this is a new blade shape and handle shape combination with a new lock type'.

As for reasons to put out a redundant design, two reasons come to mind. First is 'improved quality', this knife may be similar to others, but it is of a much higher quality. Second is 'more affordable', this knife is like others but it is more affordable. (I prefer higher quality over more affordable, but if you can combine them you really have something to offer).

.... Often I will buy a model that isn't my typical style just to see if it will change my mind.......

This is a big one for me. I could have stopped buying knives long before I discovered Spyderco and had a knife that would have got me by. I've had many knives that were 'good enough'. I have also many times thought I had found the perfect knife for me only to find that another was better. You never know if you don't try.

As long as I have an answer to 'What Spyderco would you like to see next', I have my 'why' I'll keep buying them. (A Plain Edge Hawkbill Dragonfly in ZDP-189, Hap-40, Superblue, or V-Toku2 BTW :D ) Why? Because they don't make one yet, and no company that I know of makes anything close, and it solves a problem of needing a small PE Hawkbill tool I could use at work.

[cbrant]

There are a couple of near perfect designs already in the spyderco lineup for me: Delica, Sage5 and PM2.

What I love is the opportunities to play with some new steels, at non-custom prices. Sure, s30v is all I might need, but not all I want.

[sal]

Hi CanaBrit,

Welcome to our forum.

Hey SteelCity,

In one of my philosophy classes, one of the essay questions was: "Why". There were many long answers and no really wrong answers. Mine was a simple "Why not"? Which earned a good grade.

sal

[sal]

Hi Cbrant,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[steelcity16]

Hey SteelCity,

In one of my philosophy classes, one of the essay questions was: "Why". There were many long answers and no really wrong answers. Mine was a simple "Why not"? Which earned a good grade.

sal

"Why not?" indeed

[bearfacedkiller]

There are a couple of valid reasons "why not?". There are lots of reason to do something and only a couple of reasons not to. If it isn't unethical and it won't break the bank than I say, bring it on!

Do it for passion, do it for science, do it for innovation, do it for a tribute, do it because people want it, do it for charity or do it for a profit. Just make sure to keep the lights on.