Serrations other than presentation side

[xceptnl]

I am curious why we hardly ever see knives in general that have serrations on the non-presentation side of the blade. I know a few makers offer them, but only on the limited release knives.

I hope to hear some input on why the "show" side of the blade is chosen for grinding serrations. For me (and a statistical majority of the population) as a right handed user, serrations or a Spyderedge would seem to be better on the opposite side.

I may have overlooked this topic being discussed before, but ....

[Evil D]

I plan on eventually sending a couple knives out to Wiley Knives to have serrations ground in and I plan on putting them on the back side of the blade just to see how I like it. I believe the official answer was something along the lines of controlling the "chisel grind walk" where a SE or chisel edge can steer itself through a cut, so the serrations being on the presentation side meant it would steer away from the left hand side the majority of users are right handed. Of course this also means exactly the opposite for lefties, but like you I would be ok with controlling that risk myself as I think I'd like how they perform more if they were on the back side.

[curlyhairedboy]

Has any company tried doing symmetrically ground serrations?

[xceptnl]

I plan on eventually sending a couple knives out to Wiley Knives to have serrations ground in and I plan on putting them on the back side of the blade just to see how I like it. I believe the official answer was something along the lines of controlling the "chisel grind walk" where a SE or chisel edge can steer itself through a cut, so the serrations being on the presentation side meant it would steer away from the left hand side the majority of users are right handed. Of course this also means exactly the opposite for lefties, but like you I would be ok with controlling that risk myself as I think I'd like how they perform more if they were on the back side.

I agree with the logic, but would prefer the other way as well I think. During kitchen use I notice this more frequently. When thinly slicing radishes, the wedge of the chisel wants to force the blade out of the veggie. I have some validation to my theory because if I hold my hand in the most awkward position and slice with the serrations towards the slice being removed, it peels the piece away. Similarly I have the same experience making wood shards for my camp stove nests. I prefer pull cuts for this anyway so the current serrations work, but for push cuts they dont peel my chips away as well. IMHO

[Evil D]

Has any company tried doing symmetrically ground serrations?

I've seen them ground on both sides but only alterating from side to side, never matching up to form a standard V edge. I have always been very interested in that idea but it also seems like the behind the bevel thickness would be pretty extreme and I suspect it wouldn't slice as well as a chisel grind pattern unless the blade was ground fairly thin and the serration bevel was not very wide. The way a serration bevel curves upwards into the blade really gets it higher up into the thicker part of the blade, so having a chisel grind means you can essentially cut the blade thickness in half.

[Evil D]

I agree with the logic, but would prefer the other way as well I think. During kitchen use I notice this more frequently. When thinly slicing radishes, the wedge of the chisel wants to force the blade out of the veggie. I have some validation to my theory because if I hold my hand in the most awkward position and slice with the serrations towards the slice being removed, it peels the piece away. Similarly I have the same experience making wood shards for my camp stove nests. I prefer pull cuts for this anyway so the current serrations work, but for push cuts they dont peel my chips away as well. IMHO

I think about it from a whittling perspective, I would rather have the flat side of the blade against what I'm cutting. I can control blade walk somewhat just by angling the blade, it really depends on what you're cutting. I would imagine a tomato would be easier to cut for a right handed person if the serrations were on the back of the blade.

[Jazz]

It seems done right, unless you're a lefty. I'll have to try being a lefty and whittle to be sure.

[JD Spydo]

I am curious why we hardly ever see knives in general that have serrations on the non-presentation side of the blade. I know a few makers offer them, but only on the limited release knives.

I hope to hear some input on why the "show" side of the blade is chosen for grinding serrations. For me (and a statistical majority of the population) as a right handed user, serrations or a Spyderedge would seem to be better on the opposite side.

It's really coincidental that you would mention this subject Landon because just recently I was able to snag a really super high quality J. A. Henckel kitchen/culinary knife at a local thrift store for less than $1 I might add :D . It's not only a gem of a kitchen/culinary knife but a great addition to my growing collection of high quality food knives that I've obtained in the past 5 years.

It has the serrations on the opposite side and for some strange reason I've found it a bit more difficult to sharpen because I guess I've been sharpening serrations so much on the presentation side that it just seems strange to have them on the opposite side :rolleyes:

But this J. A. Henckel culinary paring knife not only has super high quality blade steel ( and I mean to say it is very high quality) it also has an ergonomic handle that Spyderco should take a really close look at. Now as far as performance I've found that it will float on you if you don't keep it going in the direction desired. I have two other J. A. Henckel blades ( also culinary) that have the serrations on the opposite side as well and I guess that's just how Henckel does makes their SE kitchen knives. Again I don't see any obvious advantages>> now I will say that J. A. Henckel's serrated kitchen knives have a really nice serration pattern and I find their performance very comparable to Spyderco's serrations. But I've always thought that the key to serrated edge performance is in the serration pattern. Henckel isn't the only high quality serrated kitchen knife I've had with a great serration pattern. I also recently obtained a Wustof kitchen knife with a nice serration pattern as well. Also it's interesting to note that the serration patterns on both of those German made kitchen knives are a bit more tricky to sharpen than Spyderco's great serrations>> but I guess it might be because I've sharpened several dozen Spyderco serrated edges might explain that dilema . Interesting thread for sure

[Fng5]

I plan on eventually sending a couple knives out to Wiley Knives to have serrations ground in and I plan on putting them on the back side of the blade just to see how I like it. I believe the official answer was something along the lines of controlling the "chisel grind walk" where a SE or chisel edge can steer itself through a cut, so the serrations being on the presentation side meant it would steer away from the left hand side the majority of users are right handed. Of course this also means exactly the opposite for lefties, but like you I would be ok with controlling that risk myself as I think I'd like how they perform more if they were on the back side.

Do you have any contact info for Wiley Knives? I’ve been searching for someone who can add the spyderedge to a pm2 and Wiley Knives is what I keep seeing. However, googling “Wiley Knives” only gives me “Willey Knives” out of Delaware. Is this the correct place?
Thanks!

[Evil D]

I plan on eventually sending a couple knives out to Wiley Knives to have serrations ground in and I plan on putting them on the back side of the blade just to see how I like it. I believe the official answer was something along the lines of controlling the "chisel grind walk" where a SE or chisel edge can steer itself through a cut, so the serrations being on the presentation side meant it would steer away from the left hand side the majority of users are right handed. Of course this also means exactly the opposite for lefties, but like you I would be ok with controlling that risk myself as I think I'd like how they perform more if they were on the back side.

Do you have any contact info for Wiley Knives? I’ve been searching for someone who can add the spyderedge to a pm2 and Wiley Knives is what I keep seeing. However, googling “Wiley Knives” only gives me “Willey Knives” out of Delaware. Is this the correct place?
Thanks!

Yep that's the place.
http://www.willeyknives.com

[Fng5]

I plan on eventually sending a couple knives out to Wiley Knives to have serrations ground in and I plan on putting them on the back side of the blade just to see how I like it. I believe the official answer was something along the lines of controlling the "chisel grind walk" where a SE or chisel edge can steer itself through a cut, so the serrations being on the presentation side meant it would steer away from the left hand side the majority of users are right handed. Of course this also means exactly the opposite for lefties, but like you I would be ok with controlling that risk myself as I think I'd like how they perform more if they were on the back side.

Do you have any contact info for Wiley Knives? I’ve been searching for someone who can add the spyderedge to a pm2 and Wiley Knives is what I keep seeing. However, googling “Wiley Knives” only gives me “Willey Knives” out of Delaware. Is this the correct place?
Thanks!

Yep that's the place.
http://www.willeyknives.com

Thank you!

[VashHash]

I think it's more about sharpening honestly. I know it makes it easier for me to sharpen free hand because I'm right handed. I don't think it would make a difference in actual cutting task for me.

[JD Spydo]

I think it's more about sharpening honestly. I know it makes it easier for me to sharpen free hand because I'm right handed. I don't think it would make a difference in actual cutting task for me.

Really??!! Now I would have never factored that in unless I just absolutely knew that to be the case. Because let's face it the increased difficulty in sharpening serrations is the major reason A lot of people just won't buy them or even use them at all. Yeah they are a bit more tricky to sharpen in most cases but it's not nuclear physics or gene splicing :eek: I kind of taught myself two additional methods of sharpening serrations aside from what I learned on the 204 Sharpmaker.

I still maintain that in most cases manual hand sharpeners like the 701 Profiles do give a you a nicely maintained edge just like it came from the factory.

I also still maintain that there is a lot to be learned from studying all the different serration patterns that many different knife companies are using.

[Evil D]

It's probably easier to sharpen on a Sharpmaker for a righty...at least for me it's easier to sharpen the presentation side than the back side but it isn't like it's difficult to sharpen the back side. I'm sure I'd get used to it.

[JD Spydo]

It's probably easier to sharpen on a Sharpmaker for a righty...at least for me it's easier to sharpen the presentation side than the back side but it isn't like it's difficult to sharpen the back side. I'm sure I'd get used to it.

I've got one of my 204 Sharpmakers clamped down with a "Vice-Grip" welding clamp model 11 SP and I love it because it has that Sharpmaker so solid that it's like working with a permanent fixture and it frees my hands up to where I'm just as versatile from either side. I just super-honed one of those new J.A. Henckel serrated paring knives I snagged at one of our local thrift stores and I finished it by putting one of my Spyderco 302 Ultra-Fine benchstones in a Garrett Wade stone holder and used the corner of the stone for final finish work and it's just outright scary sharp.

I'm telling you the steel they are using in these newer J.A. Henckel culinary blades is awesome even compared to a lot of this new stuff that Spyderco is using. And Henckels and Wustof's serration patterns aren't bad>> they are just a bit more time consuming to sharpen compared to Spyderco's SE blades. So presentation side units are no problem with my current set up. It is kind of strange that it only seems to be German made knives that I see with the serrations on the other side :confused:

[Mad Mac]

Back in the 1970s, I saw a Cutco knife pitch that would make a snake oil salesman jealous. I managed to escape with only a 1721 trimmer. The modest serrations are on the off side. It has a hollow grind and a small swedge. The tang is full length through the hefty handle made from the same plastic as bowling balls of the era. The handle is contoured with a palm swell. This makes the knife feel substantial and comfortable.

In another thread, I complained about the dinky handles on the Spyderco kitchen knives and suggested they go full tang and G10 scales for more leverage and control.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/UP2iGfHCKXtXomkM9


https://photos.app.goo.gl/fsoYoPv1HpMPexoQ7


https://photos.app.goo.gl/XDvUBqXVj3szwDAU8

[zhyla]

I’d like to see symmetrical serrations at some point. I’m pretty sure they’re superior in every way to chisel serrations. We probably need CNC grinding to make that happen, which I’m not sure anyone has tried yet.

I dabble in knife making so I looked into getting a serration grinding wheel. Holy crap are those expensive.

[FK]

"really super high quality J. A. Henckel kitchen/culinary knife"

JDSpydo,
You are kidding us right, not serious?
No disrespect however, Henckels top quality at Rc 55-57 with most of their more common knives Rc 53-55?
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml

I have a Henckels serrated bread knife,, no comparison to the much better older Spyderco serrated bread knife by Masahiro with MBS-26 steel which is equivalent to Sandvik 19C27.
The Sandvik 19C27 is widely used in Japan for kitchen knives and known as "Swedish Steel".
Both MBS-26 and 19C27 have enough carbon to heat treat to Rc 62-64, though I doubt the Spyderco bread knife is in that range.

Regards,
FK

Member since FEb 17, 2001

[ABX2011]

I got a Spyderco Bread knife not long ago. I immediately noticed it drifting outward while slicing. My old bread knife has the serrations on the other side.

[Bill1170]

"really super high quality J. A. Henckel kitchen/culinary knife"

JDSpydo,
You are kidding us right, not serious?
No disrespect however, Henckels top quality at Rc 55-57 with most of their more common knives Rc 53-55?
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml

I have a Henckels serrated bread knife,, no comparison to the much better older Spyderco serrated bread knife by Masahiro with MBS-26 steel which is equivalent to Sandvik 19C27.
The Sandvik 19C27 is widely used in Japan for kitchen knives and known as "Swedish Steel".
Both MBS-26 and 19C27 have enough carbon to heat treat to Rc 62-64, though I doubt the Spyderco bread knife is in that range.

Regards,
FK

Member since FEb 17, 2001

A year ago I sharpened a Chinese-made Henckels 8” chef’s knife for a friend, and was surprised to discover that the steel was much harder than the steel on my German 8” Henckels chef’s knife. Mine is probably Rc 55-57. The Chinese one felt like it was in the low 60’s.