3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
GH9000
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:16 am

3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#1

Post by GH9000 »

Seen it mentioned a few times in the forums to have the Golden knives made in these steels.

Just wondering if it’s practical to have these steels in a folder? Do we need that amount of toughness in a PM2, Military, or a Native for that matter? So far the only Spyderco Knives I know of made with these steels are the discontinued Tuff and the upcoming Province.

Also, would Spyderco be able to keep the cost affordable if they made some for us?

Just some thoughts to consider. I would buy a PM2 and Yojimbo 2 if Spyderco decided to make em though. Whether practical or not.
User avatar
Pelagic
Member
Posts: 2440
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: East Coast/Nomadic

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#2

Post by Pelagic »

This is a touchy subject for whatever reason. Cruwear and 52100 are accepted by the community for folders, but 4v and ESPECIALLY 3v are passionately rejected. I don't think it'll change any time soon. I'd buy a model in either steel.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?
User avatar
wrdwrght
Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 am

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#3

Post by wrdwrght »

Who’s rejecting? I’ll take either.
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
User avatar
steelcity16
Member
Posts: 5351
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:34 am

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#4

Post by steelcity16 »

These are the two steels I am hoping for above all others to see in Golden folders. Id buy any of the models in either steels. Native, Native LW, Millie, Shaman, Manix, Manix XL, Manix Backlock, Manix LW, PM2, etc...bring it on!
:bug-white-red CRU-CARTA THE SEKI MODELS! :bug-white-red AND BRING US THE DODO-FLY! :bug-white-red
User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#5

Post by bearfacedkiller »

I would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.

Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
Chris_P_Bacon
Member
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:15 pm
Location: Florida

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#6

Post by Chris_P_Bacon »

I have a Bark River Fox River in 3V (fixed blade) that has skinned deer and wild boar. Holds an edge extremely well and sharpens easily on Naniwa water stones. As virtuovice (on the tube) has pointed out, great for getting the back straps off an animal, and a pretty good skinner to boot.

I'd love to have that same (or similar) blade shape in a folder also in 3V (or 4v) that I can easily pocket.

What's practical for one may not be for another. But if Spyderco makes it, I'd buy two!

For my purposes, edge holding trumps toughness (at least concerning folders) but these steels contain a good amount of both qualities. Also I haven't had any issues with rust, pitting, or staining with 3V.
Currently have 163 :spyder: 's & 41 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 306UF, 306CBN. Doublestuff2 303FCBN2, & 204MF Sharpmaker w/204CBN for Spidie Edges.
Want List Steels 15V, S125V, K490, M398, Magnacut, S390, SRS-15, Vanadis 8, Vanax SC, Vancron SC,
User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 2146
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am
Contact:

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#7

Post by Deadboxhero »

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 am
I would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.

Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
What do you like about psf27 Darby?
Big Brown Bear
https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston
Triple B Handmade Knives
User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#8

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 am
I would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.

Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
What do you like about psf27 Darby?
Not sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.

The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 2146
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am
Contact:

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#9

Post by Deadboxhero »

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 am
I would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.

Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
What do you like about psf27 Darby?
Not sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.

The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
****, that sounds awesome, Scott Devanna from SB Specialty metal was saying the same thing about how it compares to CPM D2 and D2.
Gayle Bradley too!

Sounds like a steel I need to check out man. Its difficult to describe but I like that kind of bite at the edge
Big Brown Bear
https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston
Triple B Handmade Knives
Whitetail addict
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#10

Post by Whitetail addict »

I would love a titanium framelock in 3v or 4v :D
@martial_logan on the instagram.
dogrunner
Member
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#11

Post by dogrunner »

I'd take either, but prefer 4V. Everybody sees 3V, thinks toughness, and somehow their logic leads them to question the need for toughness in a small blade. The benefit of toughness ain't about breaking the blade, it is about edge stability! And with the developments in heat treat for 3V (Peters/Carothers et al) abrasion resistances seems improved over slightly lower hardness 3V. This has been discussed in numerous threads by folks with more steel knowledge than me, so good reading is out there for anyone interested.

edited to add - this is about steel choice, but fwiw, I am not a fan of flippers, titanium (or any metal) scales, or framelocks, so make mine CF, G10, or micarta with a compression lock :)
User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 2146
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am
Contact:

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#12

Post by Deadboxhero »

dogrunner wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:09 pm
I'd take either, but prefer 4V. Everybody sees 3V, thinks toughness, and somehow their logic leads them to question the need for toughness in a small blade. The benefit of toughness ain't about breaking the blade, it is about edge stability! And with the developments in heat treat for 3V (Peters/Carothers et al) abrasion resistances seems improved over slightly lower hardness 3V. This has been discussed in numerous threads by folks with more steel knowledge than me, so good reading is out there for anyone interested.

edited to add - this is about steel choice, but fwiw, I am not a fan of flippers, titanium (or any metal) scales, or framelocks, so make mine CF, G10, or micarta with a compression lock :)

And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.

How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.


(I believe the term was coined by Roman Landes and he uses it differently to define how well steel performs with a polished edge)

So 4v is a win win on a folder it doesn't lose anything to 3v in a folder

3V is important on a fixed blade that's seeing more impact it's a trade off; less strength, more malleablity so there are less dramatic, critical failures when pushed to the limits a folder doesn't see that kind of kinetic force impact in use and a thinner blade that holds it's edge without rolling OR chipping is preferrable.

Even further 1v would be even MORE preferrable on a very large and long knife aka sword or an axe that need MORE ductility, malleablity, flexibility to function under the stresses of it's use.

1v on a folder even MORE edge stability? No, more blunting and rolling, disappointing compared to 4v in that role.

Would 4v MORE edge holding on a sword or axe? Sure, until it fails dramatically and just breaks

So I'd rather have the 4v :D


More stable on a folder
Big Brown Bear
https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston
Triple B Handmade Knives
Cujobob
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:26 pm

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#13

Post by Cujobob »

There are better steels for most knives for most people. 3V maximizes toughness in a steel with similar to S30V edge holding but worse corrosion resistance. What knives that Spyderco sells really need that level of toughness outside of fixed blades (which now come in M390 variants)? CPM Cruwear, M4 and others are plenty tough while also having other outstanding traits.

4V focuses a bit more on edge retention though has plenty of toughness, but comes at the cost of corrosion resistance. This is an interesting steel for certain applications, but most people wouldn’t see major added benefit to its traits above what is already seen with an M4 sort of steel (except it corrodes less). The weakness of this steel is quite a big factor.

Someone mentioned 52100 and that’s a very unique situation - its a traditional blade steel and (when heat treated properly) has both the ability to take an amazing edge and be very tough while also being easy to sharpen. It’s also inexpensive.
Cujobob
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:26 pm

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#14

Post by Cujobob »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm

And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.

How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.
User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 2146
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am
Contact:

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#15

Post by Deadboxhero »

Cujobob wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm

And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.

How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.
Big Brown Bear
https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston
Triple B Handmade Knives
User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 2146
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am
Contact:

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#16

Post by Deadboxhero »

Cujobob wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm

And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.

How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.
I've seen that some argue that high carbide can't do low angles.

Here is s110v reground to 0.006"bte at 15dps which is thinner then 10dps at 0.025"bte


Big Brown Bear
https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston
Triple B Handmade Knives
User avatar
The Mastiff
Member
Posts: 5936
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:53 am
Location: raleigh nc

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#17

Post by The Mastiff »

I'm all for steels like 3V in folders. If I can find use for O-1/5160/1075 etc. in folders 3V doesn't seem all that strange. It's one of my more favorite blade steels and having it in a folder doesn't change my mind about it. Many here may recall many of the reasons people gave for Cruwear not being suitable for knives much less folding factory type knives. Sometimes it pays to just ignore the "common wisdom" / "everybody knows" stuff because it is anything but the truth. That certainly isn't just in knives and steel either.

Joe
User avatar
Surfingringo
Member
Posts: 5818
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:02 pm
Location: Costa Rica

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#18

Post by Surfingringo »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:26 pm
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 am
I would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.

Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
What do you like about psf27 Darby?
Not sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.

The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
****, that sounds awesome, Scott Devanna from SB Specialty metal was saying the same thing about how it compares to CPM D2 and D2.
Gayle Bradley too!

Sounds like a steel I need to check out man. Its difficult to describe but I like that kind of bite at the edge
Wow, I might need to try some psf27. Darby, you just described what I consider perfect steel/sharpening characteristics. Takes a very high level of sharpness on medium stones without losing its tooth/aggression. Your description of psf27 sounds much like how I would describe cruwear. Do you find the two similar in their edge taking on medium stones? (medium SM rods and 1200 dmt’s For example)
TomAiello
Member
Posts: 6655
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:34 pm
Location: Twin Falls, ID

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#19

Post by TomAiello »

I'd actually be more interested in 3V or 4V in a fixed blade. My typical folder use calls for maximum edge holding, where toughness is something I value more in a larger fixed blade.
User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 11411
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#20

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Surfingringo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:12 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:26 pm
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 am

What do you like about psf27 Darby?
Not sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.

The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
****, that sounds awesome, Scott Devanna from SB Specialty metal was saying the same thing about how it compares to CPM D2 and D2.
Gayle Bradley too!

Sounds like a steel I need to check out man. Its difficult to describe but I like that kind of bite at the edge
Wow, I might need to try some psf27. Darby, you just described what I consider perfect steel/sharpening characteristics. Takes a very high level of sharpness on medium stones without losing its tooth/aggression. Your description of psf27 sounds much like how I would describe cruwear. Do you find the two similar in their edge taking on medium stones? (medium SM rods and 1200 dmt’s For example)
I feel like the PSF27 has a little more bite at the same grit. I would love to see a folder in this. I wish there were more folks experiencing this steel so we could get more feedback. I would absolutely buy a folder in it. A Military would be great.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
Post Reply