3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
Seen it mentioned a few times in the forums to have the Golden knives made in these steels.
Just wondering if it’s practical to have these steels in a folder? Do we need that amount of toughness in a PM2, Military, or a Native for that matter? So far the only Spyderco Knives I know of made with these steels are the discontinued Tuff and the upcoming Province.
Also, would Spyderco be able to keep the cost affordable if they made some for us?
Just some thoughts to consider. I would buy a PM2 and Yojimbo 2 if Spyderco decided to make em though. Whether practical or not.
Just wondering if it’s practical to have these steels in a folder? Do we need that amount of toughness in a PM2, Military, or a Native for that matter? So far the only Spyderco Knives I know of made with these steels are the discontinued Tuff and the upcoming Province.
Also, would Spyderco be able to keep the cost affordable if they made some for us?
Just some thoughts to consider. I would buy a PM2 and Yojimbo 2 if Spyderco decided to make em though. Whether practical or not.
Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
This is a touchy subject for whatever reason. Cruwear and 52100 are accepted by the community for folders, but 4v and ESPECIALLY 3v are passionately rejected. I don't think it'll change any time soon. I'd buy a model in either steel.
Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
Who’s rejecting? I’ll take either.
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
- steelcity16
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
These are the two steels I am hoping for above all others to see in Golden folders. Id buy any of the models in either steels. Native, Native LW, Millie, Shaman, Manix, Manix XL, Manix Backlock, Manix LW, PM2, etc...bring it on!
CRU-CARTA THE SEKI MODELS! AND BRING US THE DODO-FLY!
- bearfacedkiller
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.
Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I have a Bark River Fox River in 3V (fixed blade) that has skinned deer and wild boar. Holds an edge extremely well and sharpens easily on Naniwa water stones. As virtuovice (on the tube) has pointed out, great for getting the back straps off an animal, and a pretty good skinner to boot.
I'd love to have that same (or similar) blade shape in a folder also in 3V (or 4v) that I can easily pocket.
What's practical for one may not be for another. But if Spyderco makes it, I'd buy two!
For my purposes, edge holding trumps toughness (at least concerning folders) but these steels contain a good amount of both qualities. Also I haven't had any issues with rust, pitting, or staining with 3V.
I'd love to have that same (or similar) blade shape in a folder also in 3V (or 4v) that I can easily pocket.
What's practical for one may not be for another. But if Spyderco makes it, I'd buy two!
For my purposes, edge holding trumps toughness (at least concerning folders) but these steels contain a good amount of both qualities. Also I haven't had any issues with rust, pitting, or staining with 3V.
Currently have 163 :spyder: 's & 41 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 306UF, 306CBN. Doublestuff2 303FCBN2, & 204MF Sharpmaker w/204CBN for Spidie Edges.
Want List Steels 15V, S125V, K490, M398, Magnacut, S390, SRS-15, Vanadis 8, Vanax SC, Vancron SC,
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 306UF, 306CBN. Doublestuff2 303FCBN2, & 204MF Sharpmaker w/204CBN for Spidie Edges.
Want List Steels 15V, S125V, K490, M398, Magnacut, S390, SRS-15, Vanadis 8, Vanax SC, Vancron SC,
- Deadboxhero
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
What do you like about psf27 Darby?bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 amI would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.
Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
- bearfacedkiller
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
Not sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 amWhat do you like about psf27 Darby?bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 amI would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.
Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
- Deadboxhero
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
****, that sounds awesome, Scott Devanna from SB Specialty metal was saying the same thing about how it compares to CPM D2 and D2.bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 amNot sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 amWhat do you like about psf27 Darby?bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 amI would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.
Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
Gayle Bradley too!
Sounds like a steel I need to check out man. Its difficult to describe but I like that kind of bite at the edge
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I would love a titanium framelock in 3v or 4v :D
@martial_logan on the instagram.
Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I'd take either, but prefer 4V. Everybody sees 3V, thinks toughness, and somehow their logic leads them to question the need for toughness in a small blade. The benefit of toughness ain't about breaking the blade, it is about edge stability! And with the developments in heat treat for 3V (Peters/Carothers et al) abrasion resistances seems improved over slightly lower hardness 3V. This has been discussed in numerous threads by folks with more steel knowledge than me, so good reading is out there for anyone interested.
edited to add - this is about steel choice, but fwiw, I am not a fan of flippers, titanium (or any metal) scales, or framelocks, so make mine CF, G10, or micarta with a compression lock :)
edited to add - this is about steel choice, but fwiw, I am not a fan of flippers, titanium (or any metal) scales, or framelocks, so make mine CF, G10, or micarta with a compression lock :)
- Deadboxhero
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
dogrunner wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:09 pmI'd take either, but prefer 4V. Everybody sees 3V, thinks toughness, and somehow their logic leads them to question the need for toughness in a small blade. The benefit of toughness ain't about breaking the blade, it is about edge stability! And with the developments in heat treat for 3V (Peters/Carothers et al) abrasion resistances seems improved over slightly lower hardness 3V. This has been discussed in numerous threads by folks with more steel knowledge than me, so good reading is out there for anyone interested.
edited to add - this is about steel choice, but fwiw, I am not a fan of flippers, titanium (or any metal) scales, or framelocks, so make mine CF, G10, or micarta with a compression lock :)
And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.
How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
(I believe the term was coined by Roman Landes and he uses it differently to define how well steel performs with a polished edge)
So 4v is a win win on a folder it doesn't lose anything to 3v in a folder
3V is important on a fixed blade that's seeing more impact it's a trade off; less strength, more malleablity so there are less dramatic, critical failures when pushed to the limits a folder doesn't see that kind of kinetic force impact in use and a thinner blade that holds it's edge without rolling OR chipping is preferrable.
Even further 1v would be even MORE preferrable on a very large and long knife aka sword or an axe that need MORE ductility, malleablity, flexibility to function under the stresses of it's use.
1v on a folder even MORE edge stability? No, more blunting and rolling, disappointing compared to 4v in that role.
Would 4v MORE edge holding on a sword or axe? Sure, until it fails dramatically and just breaks
So I'd rather have the 4v :D
More stable on a folder
Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
There are better steels for most knives for most people. 3V maximizes toughness in a steel with similar to S30V edge holding but worse corrosion resistance. What knives that Spyderco sells really need that level of toughness outside of fixed blades (which now come in M390 variants)? CPM Cruwear, M4 and others are plenty tough while also having other outstanding traits.
4V focuses a bit more on edge retention though has plenty of toughness, but comes at the cost of corrosion resistance. This is an interesting steel for certain applications, but most people wouldn’t see major added benefit to its traits above what is already seen with an M4 sort of steel (except it corrodes less). The weakness of this steel is quite a big factor.
Someone mentioned 52100 and that’s a very unique situation - its a traditional blade steel and (when heat treated properly) has both the ability to take an amazing edge and be very tough while also being easy to sharpen. It’s also inexpensive.
4V focuses a bit more on edge retention though has plenty of toughness, but comes at the cost of corrosion resistance. This is an interesting steel for certain applications, but most people wouldn’t see major added benefit to its traits above what is already seen with an M4 sort of steel (except it corrodes less). The weakness of this steel is quite a big factor.
Someone mentioned 52100 and that’s a very unique situation - its a traditional blade steel and (when heat treated properly) has both the ability to take an amazing edge and be very tough while also being easy to sharpen. It’s also inexpensive.
Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm
And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.
How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
- Deadboxhero
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
Cujobob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 pmEdge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm
And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.
How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.
I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.
People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS
If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.
- Deadboxhero
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I've seen that some argue that high carbide can't do low angles.Cujobob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 pmEdge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm
And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.
How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.
Here is s110v reground to 0.006"bte at 15dps which is thinner then 10dps at 0.025"bte
- The Mastiff
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I'm all for steels like 3V in folders. If I can find use for O-1/5160/1075 etc. in folders 3V doesn't seem all that strange. It's one of my more favorite blade steels and having it in a folder doesn't change my mind about it. Many here may recall many of the reasons people gave for Cruwear not being suitable for knives much less folding factory type knives. Sometimes it pays to just ignore the "common wisdom" / "everybody knows" stuff because it is anything but the truth. That certainly isn't just in knives and steel either.
Joe
Joe
- Surfingringo
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
Wow, I might need to try some psf27. Darby, you just described what I consider perfect steel/sharpening characteristics. Takes a very high level of sharpness on medium stones without losing its tooth/aggression. Your description of psf27 sounds much like how I would describe cruwear. Do you find the two similar in their edge taking on medium stones? (medium SM rods and 1200 dmt’s For example)Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:26 pm****, that sounds awesome, Scott Devanna from SB Specialty metal was saying the same thing about how it compares to CPM D2 and D2.bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 amNot sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:25 amWhat do you like about psf27 Darby?bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 amI would much rather see 4V than 3V. They get lumped together a lot but they are a bit different. One is .8% carbon and one is 1.35%. 4V also has quite a bit more Vandium and Moly. I think that a 4V folder would be great.
Can I throw in a request for PSF27? It is amazing on my Bowie.
The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
Gayle Bradley too!
Sounds like a steel I need to check out man. Its difficult to describe but I like that kind of bite at the edge
Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I'd actually be more interested in 3V or 4V in a fixed blade. My typical folder use calls for maximum edge holding, where toughness is something I value more in a larger fixed blade.
- bearfacedkiller
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.
I feel like the PSF27 has a little more bite at the same grit. I would love to see a folder in this. I wish there were more folks experiencing this steel so we could get more feedback. I would absolutely buy a folder in it. A Military would be great.Surfingringo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:12 amWow, I might need to try some psf27. Darby, you just described what I consider perfect steel/sharpening characteristics. Takes a very high level of sharpness on medium stones without losing its tooth/aggression. Your description of psf27 sounds much like how I would describe cruwear. Do you find the two similar in their edge taking on medium stones? (medium SM rods and 1200 dmt’s For example)Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:26 pm****, that sounds awesome, Scott Devanna from SB Specialty metal was saying the same thing about how it compares to CPM D2 and D2.bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:54 amNot sure how to describe it. I seldom use the phrase "sticky edge" but it takes a great edge and holds it very well. Just finishing on the spyderco brown stone it gets an edge that feels coarse and grippy to the touch (it doesn't seem to want to slide across the pads of your fingers) but still push cuts sales flyers with ease and it keeps that edge well even when used for some batonning. I have knives in both D2 and CPMD2 and if I didn't know that that composition of PSF27 was the same I probably wouldn't believe it. I don't really understand the effects spray forming can have but they do seem to produce a different end result. It just seems to take an aggressive toothy edge and the edge seems to hold that aggressive bite while it dulls.
The issue with making a comparison is that I do not have any other knives that are all that similar to the Bowie. I do have quite a few hunting and bushcrafting knives but the design of all of them is so different and the steels all vary widely. I have been wanting to pick up a Junction but I am unsure if it will offer me anything that the Mules are not already offering. I also want to pick up a PSF27 Mule to compare with my other Mules but, alas, there are so many knives and so little money. :o
Gayle Bradley too!
Sounds like a steel I need to check out man. Its difficult to describe but I like that kind of bite at the edge
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?