3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

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dogrunner
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#81

Post by dogrunner »

Great post Chad. Thanks for taking the time and thanks for being so clear in your explanations.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#82

Post by Pelagic »

Great post Xplorer.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#83

Post by Xplorer »

Pelagic wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:21 pm
Great post Xplorer.
dogrunner wrote: Great post Chad. Thanks for taking the time and thanks for being so clear in your explanations.
Deadboxhero wrote: Above and beyond man. That took alot of time and free labor to share with us Chad.
Great read.
Thank you guys.

Hey Deadbox, I sharpened that S35VN blade by hand on a wet stone thanks to the new hand-sharpening skills I've developed by watching your videos :) . No joke! Thank you!

CK
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#84

Post by The Meat man »

Xplorer, that was very informative and interesting. Thanks for the time and effort!
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#85

Post by Baron Mind »

This thread is becoming archive worthy. Great stuff!
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#86

Post by steelcity16 »

Fake news!!!! Lol. Thanks Xplorer for that awesome testing. I love stuff like that and DBH's Rex45 vs M4 video. It is eye opening to see S35VN perform like that. I have 2 S35VN Natives that i'm going to start using with reckless abandon now and see how they hold up. Might just convince me to grab the new S35VN Para 3. I would still love a Para 3 in 4V, V4E, and 3V just to see how they truly perform and compare to Cruwear, M4, Rex45, 52100, and S35VN in that package. Im itching to try Elmax and Sleipner as well.

I could however use a big ol 3V or S7 chopper to deal with the aftermath of hurricane Florence though! Gonna be batoning branches and trees like a boss!!
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#87

Post by ikaretababy »

I'm always rooting for anything in 4v/V4E. I have recently grabbed a secondhand Mule in 4v. Do we know the rockwell on this one? I know spyderco doesn't publish harness but it seems like the mules sometimes do list target values and I've seen Sal mention what values they have gotten.

Once I sharpen this it may give a hint about the hardness but I'm putting scales on it right now so I'm just wondering if there's some old thread where the hardness was disclosed.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#88

Post by Crux »

I recommend they do this in the Para 3 line to see if it works for the public. IMHO
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#89

Post by megawatt »

I have a hinderer “sparrow” it is the only version they made in 3V. I use that folder when I go camping. Wonderful steel that performs well for me and my camping, cutting uses. I would not have to have 4V, the 3V is good enough and would get one in a para 3 if offered.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#90

Post by Xplorer »

steelcity16 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:32 pm
Fake news!!!! Lol. Thanks Xplorer for that awesome testing. I love stuff like that and DBH's Rex45 vs M4 video. It is eye opening to see S35VN perform like that. I have 2 S35VN Natives that i'm going to start using with reckless abandon now and see how they hold up. Might just convince me to grab the new S35VN Para 3. I would still love a Para 3 in 4V, V4E, and 3V just to see how they truly perform and compare to Cruwear, M4, Rex45, 52100, and S35VN in that package. Im itching to try Elmax and Sleipner as well.

I could however use a big ol 3V or S7 chopper to deal with the aftermath of hurricane Florence though! Gonna be batoning branches and trees like a boss!!
:D Thank you for the nice response. Although I'm responding to you here, I really think you bring up a point that I should further clarify for anyone reading this..

I do think S35VN Natives could surprise you with how tough they really are (one of the best overall knife designs ever IMO). Also, the Native blade size and basic geometry is very close to the sample I used in the photos. The spine thickness and the thickness behind the edge are basically the same.
However, test results indicate geometry and heat treat are the reasons I can make S35VN appear "tougher" than Cruwear, when in fact it is not.

One important thing to realize about the effects of geometry is that the difference of 1 degree in a bevel angle can make a huge difference in blade toughness capabilities. Although my test knife is very similar to Native specs, there are a couple of differences that could be the difference between a damaged blade or an undamaged blade. The saber grind on my blade is shorter than the FF grind on the Native, which means mine tapers more quickly (a little more of a wedge). Also, the sharpened bevel on my blade was free-hand sharpened so I don't have an exact angle but it's very close to 20 Degrees per side. I would expect the Native is more like 30 degrees per side. Those 2 little differences in geometry make the Native slice much better, and could be enough of a difference to mean you may not be able to cut nails in half with your Native without catastrophic damage. I not saying you plan to do that...I'm just saying if you did, it might not go well :( and I don't suggest trying with such a nice knife. Also, I heat treated my blade with toughness as part of my goal and I have the ability to walk one blade all the way through the heat treating process and focus on little details that are not realistic when heat treating large batches of blades.

So, although I agree that you should go ahead and use your Natives with reckless abandon, I want to make clear to everyone reading this thread that although S35VN is surprisingly tough, I was not necessarily trying to show that S35VN is tough. The fact that the blade I used for comparison was S35VN was simply random chance. It's what I had easily available at that moment. I could have used almost any high quality knife steel to prove the same point. I was really trying to show everyone that when it comes to a person's perception of the toughness of a blade, the steel composition just doesn't matter as much as most people think it does. It's more about the sum total of the variables in the design package than anything else.

Best regards,
CK
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#91

Post by Xplorer »

Although I think a lot of people will understand how to apply my long post from earlier on their own, I think I should add some additional clarity to make sure I don't mislead anyone.

There's a significant difference between choosing a steel when you're making a knife and choosing a steel when you're buying one.

From a knife buyer's perspective, if a company changes the steel they use in a particular design (let's say PM3, for example) the buyer will realize a change in toughness, wear resistance and corrosion resistance as compared to a previous version because the geometry didn't change.

So, for example if a PM3 blade is changed from S30V to 3V, the 3V version will be tougher, have nearly identical wear resistance and a little less corrosion resistance...no doubt. However, it's important to remember that just simply changing steel composition alone does not have a very big effect. So it will be tougher...but it's still the same geometry so the degree to which it is actually tougher will be slight. Remember what happened to my Cruwear samples that were thin geometry. Being "tough" steel didn't really help.

From a knife maker's perspective, even if the first priority in a knife is "toughness", when you understand that geometry and heat treat can make your blade as tough as you want it to be, wear resistance and corrosion resistance become much more important considerations. There is indeed a necessary sacrifice in slicing ability or force required to initiate a cut in order to achieve additional toughness by way of geometry, but often times this is a very small sacrifice. This was the point I was demonstrating in my earlier post. How one navigates those variables in the design phase depends entirely on the intended use of the design.

If a knife maker/designer or knife company is thinking about steels to use in a new design and they want extreme toughness, with appropriate application of geometry there are a dozen or more steels that can achieve considerably more toughness than will ever be needed while also having better wear resistance and better corrosion resistance than 3V. Of the three major variables that affect toughness (1 geometry, 2 heat treat, 3 steel composition), steel composition has the least impact on the resulting "toughness" of the blade. This is why it's so rare see 3V being used in folders. There's just too many other options that will result in a better balance of properties overall.

To further muddy the water :p :p , when designing a knife the "toughness" properties in a steel composition are often used in a way that doesn't make the knife tougher at all. A steel composition that exhibits better toughness charcteristics can be used to allow the edge thickness to be a little thinner without sacrificing toughness. In which case, using a "tougher" steel actually makes the knife "slicier" (scientific term ;) ) and not tougher at all.

While it may be common to exclude 3V or even 4V from consideration when designing a folder (for good reasons), doing a 3V or 4V sprint run of an existing design is an entirely different question. That's really just a question of market demand. For the record, while I will most likely never use 3V or 4V in my own folder design(s), you can count me as one who would buy a folding 3V or 4V Spyderco sprint run if they made one.

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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#92

Post by steelcity16 »

4V Para 3 sprint incoming from St. Nicks Knives! I am obviously pumped, but I am also very intrigued to see how others react. It will be interesting to see tests (DBH needs to do a Cruwear vs 4V video now!) and reviews after the few people who dont flip them or stick them in a safe actually get some miles on these knives.

I'll be grabbing a few for sure. Hats off to St. Nick's for making this happen.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#93

Post by dogrunner »

steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 pm
4V Para 3 sprint incoming from St. Nicks Knives! I am obviously pumped, but I am also very intrigued to see how others react. It will be interesting to see tests (DBH needs to do a Cruwear vs 4V video now!) and reviews after the few people who dont flip them or stick them in a safe actually get some miles on these knives.

I'll be grabbing a few for sure. Hats off to St. Nick's for making this happen.
I'll get one if they are still available when I get home from work - I like the performance of 4V and I like the PM3, so am excited to see these. Having said that, what would REALLY get me excited is if someone made a 4V Military :)
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#94

Post by steelcity16 »

Xplorer, thank you again for the additonal information. This is great perspective coming from a well regarded knife maker. Im curious what you think of the 3V Strider and Hinderer folders. Do you think they are more marketing than anything else? It seems those knives have the geometry that would allow their other steels like S35VN to be tough like in your testing.

I have another interesting question for you since you seem to enjoy this topic as much as me! :) If you were asked to make a knife that was able to chop nails and pennys, carve up brass and aluminum rods, while minimizing damage to the edge, and you had to choose and existing Golden-made folder and not change the blade shape or geometry, which model would you choose, amd which steel would you choose and how would you heat treat it and what hardness? You would ideally need to have wear resistance at least as good as plain edge H1, since that has the reputation for being the least wear resistant while still having people like myself who find it acceptable enough to use them. So H1 basically maximizes corrosion resistance at the expense of wear resistance. So this knife would maximize "toughness" at the expense of wear resistance (but you would obviously want as much wear resistance as possible once you hit that hypothetical maximum amount of toughness. You could even add corrosion resistance as a third factor if there were two steels that could maximize toughness while being similarly wear resistant. Is it possible to get all of this in something considered basically stainless like Elmax? Could you really not make 4V or 3V any more tough than Cruwear, M4, Rex45, or 52100 in something like a Native, Military, Shaman, or Manix XL.

Thanks in advance for the reponse Chad!
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#95

Post by steelcity16 »

dogrunner wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:58 pm
Having said that, what would REALLY get me excited is if someone made a 4V Military :)

I know, right? Insanely excited for this, but is it too soon to ask for them to do a 4V Military for their next one? This Red G10/ DLC 4V would make a great "family" like BHQ did with Jade/M4. If they made a Native is this combo I would probably ask my wife to make sure i'm buried with it (id buy one for each of my sons as well so they dont get mad that they dont get it!).
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#96

Post by Deadboxhero »

OMG the St Nick's Para 3 is 4V!? We can do a full test on all the PM tool steels now!!!! We just need a k390 para 3 and a 3v para 3 now. Crazy.

That's also the color combination I was begging for on a Manix 2 LW in in 4v. Just radical
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#97

Post by steelcity16 »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:18 pm

That's also the color combination I was begging for on a Manix 2 LW in in 4v. Just radical

Yeah, the Manix LW and Native LW in this Red/DLC 4V combo would be amazing. I hope we see this at some point.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#98

Post by steelcity16 »

Ok, so 4V was quite a hit today in the St. Nick's Para 3. ~600 sold in under an hour. Hard to say if it was the steel itself, the novelty of it being the first 4V folder, the fact that any new Para 3 is straight fire right now, the color scheme, etc, etc. But hopefully this will pave the way ahead for more of this class of steels. More 4V. It's BU brethren Vanadis 4 Extra (V4E). CPM-3V. PD-1. Etc, etc. Worst case some dealer should be able to throw any of these steels in a Para 3 with DLC and the standard coarse peel ply G10 (no smooth scales please...or carbon fiber) in a non-pink/purple solid color and sell out in a day. But hopefully we see these steels migrate to larger and stouter knives like the Military, Manix XL, Manix Backlock, Native, and Shaman. And i'd love to see them in the Native LW and Manix LW for a great EDC option.

I am definitely interested to see how well the 4V Manix exclusive announced today will sell given the hollow grind and high price. I think 3V or V4E would have done better in this one since St. Nick's just had a 4V exclusive, but they probably thought they would be the only 4V game in town when they thought this up months or years ago. I hope it does well to keep fueling the fire for these steels.

I'm also very interested to see the performance of the Spyderco 4V vs other Para 3s in 52100, Cruwear, Rex45, M4, S35VN, etc. I think Deadboxhero needs a Para 3 4V vs 52100 vs Cruwear video! Would be fun to throw the S35VN Para 3 in there as well based on Chad's comments.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#99

Post by Pelagic »

Indeed, more 4v.
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Re: 3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

#100

Post by Xplorer »

steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:10 pm
..Im curious what you think of the 3V Strider and Hinderer folders. Do you think they are more marketing than anything else? It seems those knives have the geometry that would allow their other steels like S35VN to be tough like in your testing.
Hi Steelcity16,

Sorry for the delayed response. I don't get a lot of time to visit the Forum lately. Lot's to unpack here :) .

What I think of Strider and Hinderer folders boils down to my personal opinion about what knives are for and therefor how they should be made to optimize their usage. In my opinion a folding knife is for cutting the usual stuff that comes up in life (not fighting or cutting metal) and it is a tool of practicality that helps a person accomplish cutting tasks in their everyday life. All of the Striders and Hinderers I have seen (and I own 3 Hinderers) are totally over-built and could be used to do things folding knives are usually not intended to do (like chop nails) regardless of the steel they are made from (I'm not suggesting anyone do this with their Striders or Hinderers). They also don't cut as easily as I prefer because they're thick behind the edge and usually thick at the spine too. They are bad-*** tough, no doubt! If I was in the military and wanted a folding knife I could shove through an enemy's jacket and chest cavity and expect it not to break when he flails violently, I would strongly consider carrying a Strider or a Hinderer or something similar. I am not, and have no plans to do any knife fighting at any point in my life :) so those designs do not make sense for my idea of what a knife is used for. For me, a folder is a small knife for small cutting tasks and I believe it should be designed for what it will actually be used for.
steelcity16 wrote:
... If you were asked to make a knife that was able to chop nails and pennys, carve up brass and aluminum rods, while minimizing damage to the edge, and you had to choose and existing Golden-made folder and not change the blade shape or geometry, which model would you choose...
To give you a definite answer I would have to look through the catalog and evaluate all of the edge geometries. Without doing that I will say this. I would choose the design with the geometry that best supports the intended use. For what you are suggesting, I would be looking for thick blade stock that is also ground thick behind the edge. I think the Tuff was a good example of this. I would also want the edge bevel at about 20 degrees per side to add strength to the edge while displacing metal in a nail or a penny. That said, Spyderco doesn't typically build knives like that (thankfully). One of the things that makes Spyderco knives so darn good is that they understand that a knife is meant to cut (but not to cut metal)...and making cutting easier generally means making the material behind the edge thinner.
steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:10 pm
...and which steel would you choose and how would you heat treat it and what hardness?
If the geometry supports the intended use, the range of steels that would work is fairly wide. For me to actually choose a steel I would need more information. Since geometry has the huge effect that is has, there are other considerations that I would want to factor into the decision. What type of environment it is used in, and what the intended use is, other than cutting metals. I suppose you might say "but what would simply be best for cutting nails and pennies, etc..?" If cutting metals were the only intended use I would say this isn't a conversation about knives at all, and suggest getting some linesman pliers, or dykes, or a hack saw, etc.. So considering we're talking about a folding knife, I would still consider all other intended use... which could make corrosion resistance and wear resistance important factors.
Heat treating recipe and protocol is specific to each steel and specific to the applicaion. As for hardness, it would also depend on the steel and application. While HRC59 might be my target for optimum results (in this context) with S35VN, my target for 4V might be 62/63 and my target for Elmax might be 62. My point is that the properties that are derived from hardness are not consistent from one steel to the next. Each steel has it's "sweet spot" hardness for a given application.
steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:10 pm
.... Is it possible to get all of this in something considered basically stainless like Elmax?
There are a few stainless steels that have very good toughness properties. As a side note, until somewhat recently Elmax was the toughest cutlery grade PM stainless available (very similar to S35VN) and now the latest version of Vanax is 25% tougher than Elmax.

If the geometry supports the intended use you can get plenty of "toughness" out of quite a few stainless steels. The question is really how abusive do you want to be, and how much are you willing sacrifice easy slicing of most materials? As you saw in my previous post, S35VN can cut nails and still cleanly slice paper if the geometry supports that use. I didn't choose S35VN for that demonstration intentionally. It was just what I had easily available. I could have achieved the same result and made the same point with Elmax, Vanax, CPM154, Nitrobe 77, M390, CPM20CV, and bunch of others as well. I simply did that to demonstrate that the design of a knife outweighs the steel composition and that we shouldn't get too crazy about the S's and V's.
steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:10 pm
Could you really not make 4V or 3V any more tough than Cruwear, M4, Rex45, or 52100 in something like a Native, Military, Shaman, or Manix XL.
Thanks in advance for the reponse Chad!
I think I pointed this out in a previous post. Yes, if you change the blade material in an existing design to a tougher material you will get a knife with greater toughness capabilities. 3V and 4V should indeed provide better toughness characteristics than the others you listed. However, as you could see with the Cruwear example I posted, if the geometry wasn't designed for your intended use, changing the steel is going to have such a small effect on "toughness capability" that it is not likely to change the toughness-related capabilities of the knife in a substantial way. Spyderco knives are not designed for chopping nails and pennies, and changing one of their existing blade designs to a tougher material isn't going to change that very much. Changing steel composition will have a much greater effect on wear resistance and corrosion resistance since the blade geometry doesn't affect these attributes.

Steel composition, geometry, heat treating, and the resulting toughness as it applies to real world use is a very complex subject. I hope I have helped you with my explanations and not made this topic even more confusing. :p

Best regards,
Chad
Last edited by Xplorer on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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