3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

[Pelagic]

3V gets hate and 52100 doesn't.

[Deadboxhero]

3V gets hate and 52100 doesn't.

I love making knives out of 52100, it's plentiful these days. Used to be that only the forging guys could use it because it was only available from bearings and bearing races. So the bladesmith guys had access to a steel that was like 1095 but had a little more pop with Chromium Carbides.

52100 is a makers steel. There are so many ways to express it. It's not like the PM high Vanadium steels that have some much alloy it pins the grains keeping them small at the higher Austenizing temps needed to put carbon in solution to quench and harden them.

52100 is ART. The maker has to control grain size and carbide size with normalizing, thremal cycles and proper Austenizing temps.

I've got a blade at 65rc in 52100 but in order to achieve that hardness I had to sacrifice grain size so it's not as good.

My favorite is one I got to 63rc. I got the grain very fine on that one.

I have a Pm2 in 52100, Kurt tested one of his Pm2 in 52100 and got ~63rc.

Looks like they got it right on the money, haven't tested the Pm2 though because it's so beautiful and it was a gift from my new friend Tim.
(Thanks brother)

I believe they did that to pay homage to custom knife makers.

Before Sal made Spyderco he was training to be a custom knife maker with the bladesmiths of the time.

That's the lineage of that new Respect Bowie design (not steel it's in CPM154)

The 52100 is tribute to the makers and a cool flavor for the edge junkies

[dogrunner]

Personally I'm very happy with my delta3V CPK fixed blades. I like the few 4V blades I own. 52100 is a fine steel, but does not hold an edge nearly as well, including the extra hard Mili, and it rusts much faster too. Different steels for different uses and price points, so as long as spyderco keeps giving us choices, I'm ok with whatever else they do :)

[Pelagic]

Shawn, so 52100 maxes out at 63 essentially? Where does 3V max? 61.5-62?

What would be the differences in performance?

[steelcity16]

Shawn, so 52100 maxes out at 63 essentially? Where does 3V max? 61.5-62?

What would be the differences in performance?

I am wondering the same regarding 52100. Where does 52100 fall in the nail chopping test?? How would 52100 compare to Rex45 and M4 in whittling brass rods?

I wonder if we will see any more 52100? The Manix 52100 has been available for almost a year and it is one of the best looking knives Spyderco has ever made. It amazes me how a Manix with one steel can sell out in minutes yet another steel is available for a year.

[blues]

^^^^It may be amazing but it shouldn't be. Most "en masse"decisions are made in the manner of herd decisions. Never discount the popularity of the flavor of the month, or the influence of respected individuals touting a particular selection. Those individuals can come from arenas as disparate as knife making, forging, martial arts, law enforcement or military by way of some examples.

Just how many users among us would notice the difference in performance between the many properly heat treated steels offered by Spyderco? You have seen the lengths that Shawn and other sharpeners / testers / makers have gone to exhibit damage to these steels and very few show up wanting for the realm of use that most of our denizens would put a folding knife through. (There will be exceptions, but they are relatively rare in the scheme of things.)

That said, it's the same as any other hobby or avocation. We want what we want because we want it. Whether it's the latest and greatest pattern, steel, sharpening gear, etc.

I openly admit that I am not immune to the allure myself. Just don't expect it to necessarily make "sense". (As long as one can responsibly afford to indulge, there are many worse ways to spend one's time and money.)

[TomAiello]

52100 seems to have a really wide range. I have a paring knife in it that's really hard, and a machete in it that's super tough. It's almost like a good maker can pick what kind of steel they want it to be.

[Deadboxhero]

Shawn, so 52100 maxes out at 63 essentially? Where does 3V max? 61.5-62?

What would be the differences in performance?

52100 is an art, I'd like to geek out on it and get it harder and more stable but I'm focused on steels that are built to work at higher hardnesses.

The difference between those is that the 52100 will hold a crisper apex better.

The 3V will be more durable and resist wear.

If your an edge freak you would probably prefer the 52100, especially the ease it takes to get an extremely sharp edge and it's ability to go with more acute angles but it won't physically cut as long as 3v nor will it be as resistant to shock.

[Deadboxhero]

The really cool thing is that PM Cruwear is tougher than 4V yet Stronger and more wear resistant than 3V.

That is why I have been pushing for the Shaman to be in Cruwear. It's a perfect fit. Of course Cruwear is nice on any folder. I personally like 4V because it can run harder and is more wear resistant and plenty tough with the right Geometry.

[blues]

The really cool thing is that PM Cruwear is tougher than 4V yet Stronger and more wear resistant than 3V.

That is why I have been pushing for the Shaman to be in Cruwear. It's a perfect fit. Of course Cruwear is nice on any folder. I personally like 4V because it can run harder and is more wear resistant and plenty tough with the right Geometry.

Well said, Shawn.

[Deadboxhero]

The really cool thing is that PM Cruwear is tougher than 4V yet Stronger and more wear resistant than 3V.

That is why I have been pushing for the Shaman to be in Cruwear. It's a perfect fit. Of course Cruwear is nice on any folder. I personally like 4V because it can run harder and is more wear resistant and plenty tough with the right Geometry.

Well said, Shawn.

Thanks Elliot,
Yeah there was a reason behind it.

Hope it happens one day.

[steelcity16]

The really cool thing is that PM Cruwear is tougher than 4V yet Stronger and more wear resistant than 3V.

That is why I have been pushing for the Shaman to be in Cruwear. It's a perfect fit. Of course Cruwear is nice on any folder.

+1! We REALLY need CPM-CRUWEAR as a production steel. I'd LOVE to see Spyderco replace S110V with Cruwear, keep the Blurple scales, and offer stonewash and DLC for each model.

[Pelagic]

Shawn, so 52100 maxes out at 63 essentially? Where does 3V max? 61.5-62?

What would be the differences in performance?

52100 is an art, I'd like to geek out on it and get it harder and more stable but I'm focused on steels that are built to work at higher hardnesses.

The difference between those is that the 52100 will hold a crisper apex better.

The 3V will be more durable and resist wear.

If your an edge freak you would probably prefer the 52100, especially the ease it takes to get an extremely sharp edge and it's ability to go with more acute angles but it won't physically cut as long as 3v nor will it be as resistant to shock.

Thanks for the response. I see the world is one's oyster in heat treating 52100. I was curious though how hard 3V can get without starting to micro—chip. I've read that it's not very stable at 64rc, but some have gotten 62 to work well (bladeforums). I can see that it doesn't have the stability at high hardness of 4V, but I'm curious as to how hard people have pushed it. Maybe they just don't care since 4V exists now? Is 3V useless in a folder in your opinion? I've had a few knives in 3v and one in 4v. I did like the knife in 4v a tad better, but I've really enjoyed my small 3v fixed blades.

[Deadboxhero]

Shawn, so 52100 maxes out at 63 essentially? Where does 3V max? 61.5-62?

What would be the differences in performance?

52100 is an art, I'd like to geek out on it and get it harder and more stable but I'm focused on steels that are built to work at higher hardnesses.

The difference between those is that the 52100 will hold a crisper apex better.

The 3V will be more durable and resist wear.

If your an edge freak you would probably prefer the 52100, especially the ease it takes to get an extremely sharp edge and it's ability to go with more acute angles but it won't physically cut as long as 3v nor will it be as resistant to shock.

Thanks for the response. I see the world is one's oyster in heat treating 52100. I was curious though how hard 3V can get without starting to micro—chip. I've read that it's not very stable at 64rc, but some have gotten 62 to work well (bladeforums). I can see that it doesn't have the stability at high hardness of 4V, but I'm curious as to how hard people have pushed it. Maybe they just don't care since 4V exists now? Is 3V useless in a folder in your opinion? I've had a few knives in 3v and one in 4v. I did like the knife in 4v a tad better, but I've really enjoyed my small 3v fixed blades.

I'm not saying it's useless but if you're pushing the hardness you're leaving behind the reason to use it in the first place and you're deep in 4v territory.

Structure is funtion, not the steel names.

The different compositions have inherit attributes from the structures they make that are tied to being in a certain range. So, pushed outside it's range and it's better to use a different steel.

Why?

The toughness doesn't follow with hardness.
The toughest steels in the world are Infi, A8mod, S5 CPM 1V and they will not continue being the toughest if past 60rc.

These super tough steels for example don't have the ability to really push past 60rc and the structures don't really support that hardness since they lack the building blocks to promote strength at that hardness.

Even when under 60rc, the toughness that comes from shock resistance/impact toughness does not translate to edge stability/edge toughness
(which needs more strength but would reduce the other factor if using at thin geometry).

It's an inverse relationship to some degree.

Shock resistance and impact toughness allows the steel to move and deform thanks to being very low carbide volume and under 60hrc. More strength is detrimental so You'll have to pick and choose.

I say get the better edge steel and use either a thicker geometry for more durability or go thinner for more performance and use it better.

I'd say based on Spyderco knives being focused on offering cutting performance that the Cruwear and 4V are plenty durable (especially with production geometry) and will physically cut longer than the same knife in 3V while still providing plenty of durability.

I know that 3V is your favorite steel, I got no problems with another man's preferences.

Spyderco would make money either way.

However, knowing what I know about knife steels, I thought I'd give the PSA about some of the finer details and open peoples minds to the options and further possiblities with things perhaps they don't get to experience like I do.

[blues]

Shawn, it's time...


https://youtu.be/Go7ew5ezRB0

[Deadboxhero]

Shawn, it's time...


https://youtu.be/Go7ew5ezRB0

Hahahhaah, CLASSIC!

[Pelagic]

Shawn, so 52100 maxes out at 63 essentially? Where does 3V max? 61.5-62?

What would be the differences in performance?

52100 is an art, I'd like to geek out on it and get it harder and more stable but I'm focused on steels that are built to work at higher hardnesses.

The difference between those is that the 52100 will hold a crisper apex better.

The 3V will be more durable and resist wear.

If your an edge freak you would probably prefer the 52100, especially the ease it takes to get an extremely sharp edge and it's ability to go with more acute angles but it won't physically cut as long as 3v nor will it be as resistant to shock.

Thanks for the response. I see the world is one's oyster in heat treating 52100. I was curious though how hard 3V can get without starting to micro—chip. I've read that it's not very stable at 64rc, but some have gotten 62 to work well (bladeforums). I can see that it doesn't have the stability at high hardness of 4V, but I'm curious as to how hard people have pushed it. Maybe they just don't care since 4V exists now? Is 3V useless in a folder in your opinion? I've had a few knives in 3v and one in 4v. I did like the knife in 4v a tad better, but I've really enjoyed my small 3v fixed blades.

I'm not saying it's useless but if you're pushing the hardness you're leaving behind the reason to use it in the first place and you're deep in 4v territory.

Structure is funtion, not the steel names.

The different compositions have inherit attributes from the structures they make that are tied to being in a certain range. So, pushed outside it's range and it's better to use a different steel.

Why?

The toughness doesn't follow with hardness.
The toughest steels in the world are Infi, A8mod, S5 CPM 1V and they will not continue being the toughest if past 60rc.

These super tough steels for example don't have the ability to really push past 60rc and the structures don't really support that hardness since they lack the building blocks to promote strength at that hardness.

Even when under 60rc, the toughness that comes from shock resistance/impact toughness does not translate to edge stability/edge toughness
(which needs more strength but would reduce the other factor if using at thin geometry).

It's an inverse relationship to some degree.

Shock resistance and impact toughness allows the steel to move and deform thanks to being very low carbide volume and under 60hrc. More strength is detrimental so You'll have to pick and choose.

I say get the better edge steel and use either a thicker geometry for more durability or go thinner for more performance and use it better.

I'd say based on Spyderco knives being focused on offering cutting performance that the Cruwear and 4V are plenty durable (especially with production geometry) and will physically cut longer than the same knife in 3V while still providing plenty of durability.

I know that 3V is your favorite steel, I got no problems with another man's preferences.

Spyderco would make money either way.

However, knowing what I know about knife steels, I thought I'd give the PSA about some of the finer details and open peoples minds to the options and further possiblities with things perhaps they don't get to experience like I do.

Very in depth, I appreciate you taking the time. 3V is absolutely NOT my favorite steel. It's actually not even close. I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I've just noticed it has recently been widely regarded as trash within the more elitist members of the online knife community, and I'm actually ignorant to its true capabilities as I'm only familiar with production models. I was hoping for some insight on its capabilities, purely out of curiosity. I already know 4V is a better choice for a folder. For a folder with a blade under 2.5 inches, I'd probably argue that 10V is better than 4V in ALMOST every way. There are lots of examples where new steels emerged (at least in regard to popularity) that are essentially upgrades to other steels, yet the steels they replaced aren't regarded as trash like 3V is. I was wondering how far 3V could be pushed and I'm essentially just hearing "4V is better, use 4v". I get it, and I'll let this go now and not mention this steel anymore.

4V Nation baby!

[blues]

Now "Hamlet" makes a lot more sense...

"3V or not 3V, that is the question"

:p

(Either way, I will continue to be a closet user of my 3V fixed blade utility knife from Ed Schott I've owned for about 20 years now.)

[Naperville]

With all of this chatter about 3V and 4V, has anyone brought up S7?

S7 is at least 300% more tough than 3V.

[Crux]

When they put in in a Para 3 then I'll buy it, otherwise it's just glorified tinfoil. :)