3V or 4V Steel in a folder.

[Pelagic]

You're right. I'm wrong.

I don't have time to argue over something so trivial.

I may not make knives but I have owned several in both steels and do a lot more than slice tomatoes.

What happened? did the 4v chip? what was the test? Share with us

Yes, I have had a few small chips in my 4v knives over the years, never in a 3v one. The chips are long sharpened out now and most of them I've sold. Imagine literally wacking your apex against rusty steel like the frame of a car or a boat trailer. I work in settings where that can happen after making a cut. I've seen it both ways (4v and 3v). But I officially forfeit this debate. I am wrong.

The one thing I was right about is what I stated in the first response to this thread.

Hey dude, for what it's worth I'm a huge V4E/M4 fan. I've had some 4V with less than stellar heat treatment chip pretty easily. I didn't heat treat it and the guy who did may or may not have known what he was doing. I speculate that he burned the steel, i don't know. Or maybe there are differences between V4E and 4V that don't show up on paper. Anyway, it chipped way easier than i thought it should have. Never had a problem with V4E or M4 at relatively high hardness and I'm not easy on my knives. They seem to show far better stability overall than even relatively high hardness 52100 in that the amount of chipping, rolling, and denting was much less pronounced, nevermind raw wear resistance.

I can see both sides. Maybe the 4V you've tried wasnt the best? Maybe the 4V being advocated by Deadboxhero was really well done? I think there may be more to the story than simply 3V having better edges than 4V. Or maybe not. Neither steel is better than the other and we're all free to have our own opinion. Mine is that i can't stand S30V even though many people would say I'm crazy for not liking it. Either way, I'd like to see more 3V, 4V, etc., but most people would rather buy stainless so I'm hanging out waiting patiently for knives more to my liking. I would kind of like to hear who made the 4V you didn't quite like, how it was heat treated if known, and how it had been sharpened just for my own knowledge.



.....
I'd like to see more reversed serrations. I hope i don't sound crazy for saying that. I'd like the plain edge at the heel and the serrations at the belly. Some might think I'm really odd for saying that.

I really want to try v4e. I wasn't arguing against 4v. From the beginning I've advocated for it. I am simply not passionately against 3v. I'm also with you on s30v, although I really like the s30v on my buck vantage pro (don't really like the knife itself). I just don't see it as a formidable performer in any category aside from corrosion resistance (it isn't bad by any means either, I just prefer something different or something that stands out). Virtually every cut test I've seen has 3v out-cutting s30v also.

This is all really trivial. Even as a pseudo-steel snob I don't think this matters all that much.

[mattman]

Pelagic-
I don't think DBH was being aggressive or confrontational... More likely "enthusiastic" to engage, and hear your thoughts/experience with the steel.

Idk if you've watched any of his videos, but he's one of the good guys!

[Pelagic]

Pelagic-
I don't think DBH was being aggressive or confrontational... More likely "enthusiastic" to engage, and hear your thoughts/experience with the steel.

Idk if you've watched any of his videos, but he's one of the good guys!

I didn't say he was. Someone else did. I was just quick to end the debate because I've been there before and it's ridiculous.

[dogrunner]

Pelagic-
I don't think DBH was being aggressive or confrontational... More likely "enthusiastic" to engage, and hear your thoughts/experience with the steel.

Idk if you've watched any of his videos, but he's one of the good guys!

I didn't say he was. Someone else did. I was just quick to end the debate because I've been there before and it's ridiculous.

That was me, and probably the wrong word, but in these discussions it seems everything comes across as a challenge. DBH is definitely one of the good guys (I have personally benefited from his efforts to getting knives made in great steels (M4 Malanika puuko in this case), but the OP really is right - these discussions tend to turn into this kung fu is better than that kung fu, when either one will work fine (if you are Bruce Lee ... or Spyderco :) I have read enough of DBHs posts (and Bodog's) to appreciate their sincere and insightful contributions (Bodog put me on to van4e with his ZT review). But arguments seem to spontaneously emerge! Pelagic did not say 3V was better than 4V, just that he wants folders in 3V. I concur (and like many reading this thread also want 4V and more Cruwear :)).
Sorry I have nothing substantive to contribute. Just wanted to add my vote for 3V etc.

[Pelagic]

Pelagic-
I don't think DBH was being aggressive or confrontational... More likely "enthusiastic" to engage, and hear your thoughts/experience with the steel.

Idk if you've watched any of his videos, but he's one of the good guys!

I didn't say he was. Someone else did. I was just quick to end the debate because I've been there before and it's ridiculous.

That was me, and probably the wrong word, but in these discussions it seems everything comes across as a challenge. DBH is definitely one of the good guys (I have personally benefited from his efforts to getting knives made in great steels (M4 Malanika puuko in this case), but the OP really is right - these discussions tend to turn into this kung fu is better than that kung fu, when either one will work fine (if you are Bruce Lee ... or Spyderco :) I have read enough of DBHs posts (and Bodog's) to appreciate their sincere and insightful contributions (Bodog put me on to van4e with his ZT review). But arguments seem to spontaneously emerge! Pelagic did not say 3V was better than 4V, just that he wants folders in 3V. I concur (and like many reading this thread also want 4V and more Cruwear :)).
Sorry I have nothing substantive to contribute. Just wanted to add my vote for 3V etc.

Oh for sure. I have nothing against anyone here. I just find some arguments odd.

The basic argument is: 4v can do everything 3v can do, but better.

However this argument doesn't exist: s110v can do everything s90v can do, but better.

For anyone wanting to attack that specific example, that is just one example of many. Examples exist to highlight underlying concepts, not to insist that the subject matter is identical or applies directly in every way.

Also notice no one really touches on the 52100 vs 3v issue. Most people love 52100 in a folder (including myself), but a large number of people are against 3v, when 52100 has virtually nothing to offer over 3v in performance.

I just don't get the logic. I don't expect to ever get it, and it doesn't bother me. I would just like to see a folder in 3v. 4v moreso.

[Bodog]

Pelagic-
I don't think DBH was being aggressive or confrontational... More likely "enthusiastic" to engage, and hear your thoughts/experience with the steel.

Idk if you've watched any of his videos, but he's one of the good guys!

I didn't say he was. Someone else did. I was just quick to end the debate because I've been there before and it's ridiculous.

That was me, and probably the wrong word, but in these discussions it seems everything comes across as a challenge. DBH is definitely one of the good guys (I have personally benefited from his efforts to getting knives made in great steels (M4 Malanika puuko in this case), but the OP really is right - these discussions tend to turn into this kung fu is better than that kung fu, when either one will work fine (if you are Bruce Lee ... or Spyderco :) I have read enough of DBHs posts (and Bodog's) to appreciate their sincere and insightful contributions (Bodog put me on to van4e with his ZT review). But arguments seem to spontaneously emerge! Pelagic did not say 3V was better than 4V, just that he wants folders in 3V. I concur (and like many reading this thread also want 4V and more Cruwear :)).
Sorry I have nothing substantive to contribute. Just wanted to add my vote for 3V etc.

Oh for sure. I have nothing against anyone here. I just find some arguments odd.

The basic argument is: 4v can do everything 3v can do, but better.

However this argument doesn't exist: s110v can do everything s90v can do, but better.

For anyone wanting to attack that specific example, that is just one example of many. Examples exist to highlight underlying concepts, not to insist that the subject matter is identical or applies directly in every way.

Also notice no one really touches on the 52100 vs 3v issue. Most people love 52100 in a folder (including myself), but a large number of people are against 3v, when 52100 has virtually nothing to offer over 3v in performance.

I just don't get the logic. I don't expect to ever get it, and it doesn't bother me. I would just like to see a folder in 3v. 4v moreso.

I would rather have 3V than 52100 any day of the week no matter which application. 52100 is good. 3V is better.

[TomAiello]

What does 52100 have over 3v?

How's the stain/corrosion resistance?

In my use (in a desert environment) 3V has been better than 52100 for pretty much everything.

[vvs]

> How's the stain/corrosion resistance?

Having past year 3V in Boker Solo I may say it a) has better corrosion resistance than M4 b) has no signs of patina after cutting onions and tomatos c) once sharpened stays shaving sharp d) being sharpened to 12 dp, hollow ground and 0,4mm BTE (reminds me GB1) surpasses whittling in dried acacia both tip and belly.

Can't say it's really magic or something, but geometry/steel -wise it ok and I like it.

Te whole Boker Solo reminds me large Lum folder by aesthetics and forms = comfortable in hands and useful form.

[dogrunner]

What does 52100 have over 3v?

How's the stain/corrosion resistance?

In my use (in a desert environment) 3V has been better than 52100 for pretty much everything.

I have a bunch of 3V fixed blades and a few folders, including the Tuff. I've never had corrosion problems with 3V.
I have a bunch of M4 folders (all spydercos) and 1 fixed (custom). No corrosion problems, but I try clean, oil, and dry them when I think of it. Very little difference in care vs stainless.
I have a bunch of 52100 fixed blades that are all coated, and the edges rust pretty readily. Gotta keep them clean and dry. I have 1 folder n 52100 - the spyderco mili. It rusts readily, gotta keep it clean and oiled. It is a higher care steel than 3V or M4 in my experience.
I do not live near salt water and humidity is generally on the lower side. YMMV.

[steelcity16]

in my experience 3V > M4 > 52100 corrosion wise. I havent had a 4V blade yet. Cruwear is pretty close to 3V in my experience, as in I havent had any corrosion issues with either. But I dont do anything too crazy. My M4 and 52100 have had corrsion though with light use. I still enjoy then though.

I agree that I don't think there is a single good reason to not do a sprint run with 3V and 4V. Plenty of people would buy them because they already know and love these steels, and plenty more would buy them to try based on the great things they have heard, and plenty of people would buy them just because they want to add another Native or Millie or PM2 or whatever to their hoarde.

[The Mastiff]

I agree that I don't think there is a single good reason to not do a sprint run with 3V and 4V. Plenty of people would buy them because they already know and love these steels, and plenty more would buy them to try based on the great things they have heard, and plenty of people would buy them just because they want to add another Native or Millie or PM2 or whatever to their hoarde.

I'm in the first and third groups.

Joe

[Cujobob]

And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.

How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.

Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

[steelcity16]

There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

Like a few others here, I will never get this arguement. They have done 3V in a tool with the TUFF. They have done Cruwear and 52100 in many of the Golden folders, and those are pretty close to 3V, with 3V really being better than 52100 in most everything according to many people (I have never had 3V and 52100 in the same platform so I cannot validate that claim, just restating what others have said). So why wouldn't it make sense? Especially when there are people lining up to buy them?

[Bodog]

There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

Like a few others here, I will never get this arguement. They have done 3V in a tool with the TUFF. They have done Cruwear and 52100 in many of the Golden folders, and those are pretty close to 3V, with 3V really being better than 52100 in most everything according to many people (I have never had 3V and 52100 in the same platform so I cannot validate that claim, just restating what others have said). So why wouldn't it make sense? Especially when there are people lining up to buy them?

How cool would the hatchethawk have been in 3V? You could literally destroy a building with it.

[Pelagic]

And that's the misunderstanding that the 3v is more stable but it will roll and blunt much faster at a folding knife geometry while 4v will just hold it's shape better.

How people use the term edge stability is that it just holds it's edge/shape, it doesn't chip OR roll. It's just stable.

Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

No offense, but the prybar thing/argument has been used out. Toughness in knives is about people who do more than open letters. People who work in the field and their knife's edge could often be damaged after making a cut (when there's no way around it). You're insinuating that someone wanting toughness in a folder doesn't know how to use one. I am not trying to single you out, but this is simply a classic (flawed) example of a common notion amongst the online knife community.

"I actually know how to properly use a knife, he must be abusing his".

Let that philosophy go and have some empathy. We're not always in settings where we can use our knives exactly the way we'd want to. Sometimes you just have to cut something and damage to your edge may happen. In that case, I'd say all of us would prefer such damage minimized.

[Deadboxhero]

Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

No offense, but the prybar thing/argument has been used out. Toughness in knives is about people who do more than open letters. People who work in the field and their knife's edge could often be damaged after making a cut (when there's no way around it). You're insinuating that someone wanting toughness in a folder doesn't know how to use one. I am not trying to single you out, but this is simply a classic (flawed) example of a common notion amongst the online knife community.

"I actually know how to properly use a knife, he must be abusing his".

Let that philosophy go and have some empathy. We're not always in settings where we can use our knives exactly the way we'd want to. Sometimes you just have to cut something and damage to your edge may happen. In that case, I'd say all of us would prefer such damage minimized.

I'd like to see a knife test between 3v and 4v, what do you think would be a good test?

[Pelagic]

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

No offense, but the prybar thing/argument has been used out. Toughness in knives is about people who do more than open letters. People who work in the field and their knife's edge could often be damaged after making a cut (when there's no way around it). You're insinuating that someone wanting toughness in a folder doesn't know how to use one. I am not trying to single you out, but this is simply a classic (flawed) example of a common notion amongst the online knife community.

"I actually know how to properly use a knife, he must be abusing his".

Let that philosophy go and have some empathy. We're not always in settings where we can use our knives exactly the way we'd want to. Sometimes you just have to cut something and damage to your edge may happen. In that case, I'd say all of us would prefer such damage minimized.

I'd like to see a knife test between 3v and 4v, what do you think would be a good test?

Real life use. Who cares? The 3v knife you don't buy will be another in my pocket.

By the way, i see what you're doing and I couldn't care less about your opinion of 4v vs 3v. You don't need to keep pressing me for answers or finding ways for me to admit 4v is better; I already have. I've also already tried to end this debate. When I quoted that last post I was not talking to you. Your opinion has been noted, again.

[Cujobob]

Edge/apex stability determines how acute your edge angle can be. High carbide steels typically are sharpened to around 15DPS, but with some steels you can get under 10 without a problem. They will cut better. The toughness of 3V is mostly just going to be a benefit if you’re prying or batoning and that doesn’t really fit what Spyderco designs its knives for.

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

No offense, but the prybar thing/argument has been used out. Toughness in knives is about people who do more than open letters. People who work in the field and their knife's edge could often be damaged after making a cut (when there's no way around it). You're insinuating that someone wanting toughness in a folder doesn't know how to use one. I am not trying to single you out, but this is simply a classic (flawed) example of a common notion amongst the online knife community.

"I actually know how to properly use a knife, he must be abusing his".

Let that philosophy go and have some empathy. We're not always in settings where we can use our knives exactly the way we'd want to. Sometimes you just have to cut something and damage to your edge may happen. In that case, I'd say all of us would prefer such damage minimized.

Your argument is basically that you think it’s silly when people say design a knife to cut best. Most modern steels from Spyderco are very tough. M4 is used plenty and is very durable plus will have less corrosion than 4V.

You wouldn’t buy a screwdriver that was meh as a screwdriver but could also be a passable chisel. You’d buy a good screwdriver and a good chisel.

I get the argument about what if you’re hitting metal and want to avoid damage... but you can also leave your edge more durable or use one of the many knives with tougher steels if that’s a common enough issue for you. If you’re spending Spyderco sorts of money on a knife, I would think cutting performance matters most.

[Pelagic]

I agree about the 3v, I think people would be happier with 4v which is a win win for everyone.

I saw some people talk about how they would appreciate 3v for using like a cold chisel, scraper and making contact with metal and ceramic when smacking the edge around recklessly and sheering through materials rather then cutting but I'd argue that's geometry not steel.

People that use there knives very abusively should just increase the edge angle to thickin the edge to 25-30 DPS


If you look at metal cutting shears there not made out of insane steels, it's all geometry. They use hard enough tool steels and thick geometry to displace and sheer off materials. Not magic steel or heat treatment, just geometry.

I agree, if you want a knife to abuse... get one ground for it and don’t keep the edge overly acute. Or... as I usually say, keep a mini pry bar on you. Why would you want a knife to perform far worse just for a situation that may never happen? I suppose if you don’t cut much it makes sense...


There are some situations where 3V could make sense on a tool, but not really for Spyderco.

No offense, but the prybar thing/argument has been used out. Toughness in knives is about people who do more than open letters. People who work in the field and their knife's edge could often be damaged after making a cut (when there's no way around it). You're insinuating that someone wanting toughness in a folder doesn't know how to use one. I am not trying to single you out, but this is simply a classic (flawed) example of a common notion amongst the online knife community.

"I actually know how to properly use a knife, he must be abusing his".

Let that philosophy go and have some empathy. We're not always in settings where we can use our knives exactly the way we'd want to. Sometimes you just have to cut something and damage to your edge may happen. In that case, I'd say all of us would prefer such damage minimized.

Your argument is basically that you think it’s silly when people say design a knife to cut best. Most modern steels from Spyderco are very tough. M4 is used plenty and is very durable plus will have less corrosion than 4V.

You wouldn’t buy a screwdriver that was meh as a screwdriver but could also be a passable chisel. You’d buy a good screwdriver and a good chisel.

I get the argument about what if you’re hitting metal and want to avoid damage... but you can also leave your edge more durable or use one of the many knives with tougher steels if that’s a common enough issue for you. If you’re spending Spyderco sorts of money on a knife, I would think cutting performance matters most.

3v beats s30v in most cut tests so think of a better example.

[Pelagic]

Lol, I think I'm going back to being a lurker on this forum. I feel like I'm wasting a lot of time on this site not drinking the popular kool-aid.