How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

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ladybug93
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby ladybug93 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:17 pm

the sanding route seems like a really bad idea. if this plastic really hurts your hands that bad, you probably shouldn’t be using your knives for whatever it is you’re doing or you should toughen up your hands a little. i really just can’t imagine them being this uncomfortable to anyone.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby steelcity16 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 am

Most people seem to indicate that they strongly perfer the Japanese FRN to the whatever the heck is actually used in the current Native and Manix LWs. If the difference is due to the formula of the FRN and not the finish of the mold, perhaps they can do a CQI change to make the FRN of the Native and Manix be the same (or a close to as possible) as the Japanese FRN. I dont care as much about the squared off edges vs rounded edges, but the material is noticably different.

Does anyone have the old Native? Ive never handled one, but the material on the old Native (the one with the swedge) looks much more like the Japanese FRN. So maybe it can be a simple CQI change to go back to that material?
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Evil D » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:26 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 am


Does anyone have the old Native? Ive never handled one, but the material on the old Native (the one with the swedge) looks much more like the Japanese FRN. So maybe it can be a simple CQI change to go back to that material?
The original Native was my first Spyderco. I definitely think it's just the shape of the handle and mold texture and not necessarily a formula difference. For whatever reason the Golden molds are just more blocky.
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Evil D » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am

ladybug93 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:17 pm
the sanding route seems like a really bad idea. if this plastic really hurts your hands that bad, you probably shouldn’t be using your knives for whatever it is you’re doing or you should toughen up your hands a little. i really just can’t imagine them being this uncomfortable to anyone.

It all depends on what you're doing with the knife. Even with gloves on I got some serious hot spots from my Manix LW. We can go in circles about using the right tool for the job or using a fixed blade instead, but that's dodging the issue. The handles don't have to be shaped like this, so these hot spots don't have to happen. There are plenty of folders I could have done this job with that wouldn't have left me with a sore palm.

//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... =2&t=68682
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby steelcity16 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:40 am

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:26 am
steelcity16 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:45 am


Does anyone have the old Native? Ive never handled one, but the material on the old Native (the one with the swedge) looks much more like the Japanese FRN. So maybe it can be a simple CQI change to go back to that material?
The original Native was my first Spyderco. I definitely think it's just the shape of the handle and mold texture and not necessarily a formula difference. For whatever reason the Golden molds are just more blocky.

The blockiness doesnt bother me, its more the feel of the material. It matly be that the golden molds are polished and the japan molds have a slightly rougher surface leaving some texture. The Native LW is my favorite model, so Im not really complaining too much, but I do prefer the texture of the Japan FRN and it seems like most others do as well based on responses here. If they could sandblast the Native LW molds to roughen them a bit and give them the same texture as the Japanese FRN, that would really make the Native LW perfect in my opinion. The shape of the handle and squared edges work fine for me.
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Eli Chaps » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:53 am

One of the very first things I do to a new Manix 2 LW is take some 600 and 1000 grit sandpaper paper to all that terribly annoying "jimping". Smooth all that out and it feels soooo much better. In fact,that "jimping" is a major reason I have yet to try a standard Manix 2.

I've also sanded sharp edges on FRN models.

I can feel the difference in the materials but I don't care either way. They are still my favorite EDC materials.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby steelcity16 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:21 am

Eli Chaps wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:53 am
One of the very first things I do to a new Manix 2 LW is take some 600 and 1000 grit sandpaper paper to all that terribly annoying "jimping". Smooth all that out and it feels soooo much better. In fact,that "jimping" is a major reason I have yet to try a standard Manix 2.

I've also sanded sharp edges on FRN models.

I can feel the difference in the materials but I don't care either way. They are still my favorite EDC materials.

i love the jimping on the g10 manix. feels great
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Darth_cholo » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:49 am

ladybug93 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:17 pm
the sanding route seems like a really bad idea. if this plastic really hurts your hands that bad, you probably shouldn’t be using your knives for whatever it is you’re doing or you should toughen up your hands a little. i really just can’t imagine them being this uncomfortable to anyone.
On my LW manis I don't like the slick top and bottom. I want it grippier. Sanding to make it rougher is what I was suggesting

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:16 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am
ladybug93 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:17 pm
the sanding route seems like a really bad idea. if this plastic really hurts your hands that bad, you probably shouldn’t be using your knives for whatever it is you’re doing or you should toughen up your hands a little. i really just can’t imagine them being this uncomfortable to anyone.

It all depends on what you're doing with the knife. Even with gloves on I got some serious hot spots from my Manix LW. We can go in circles about using the right tool for the job or using a fixed blade instead, but that's dodging the issue. The handles don't have to be shaped like this, so these hot spots don't have to happen. There are plenty of folders I could have done this job with that wouldn't have left me with a sore palm.

//forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... =2&t=68682
i don't think it's dodging the issue to say you should be using the right tool for the job. you used the tool for something it wasn't made for and it worked, but you had to pay a little bit of a price for it. that's how it goes with most things. i do agree that the handles don't have to be squared off, but as sal mentioned elsewhere, it would require a complete redesign of the knife. and looking at the manix 2 lw in my hand right now, i think it would probably make the knife even bigger in the pocket for very little payoff. if you use the knife how it's meant to be used, it's perfectly fine. if you push it a little, it's perfectly fine. if you push it far beyond what it's designed to do, like you did, it will still be fine and you will too, but you may experience some discomfort. if you regularly use a pocket knife to clear a path through the jungle (or trim your backyard), you should consider a different tool. otherwise, the manix is probably fine for normal every day use.
Darth_cholo wrote: On my LW manis I don't like the slick top and bottom. I want it grippier. Sanding to make it rougher is what I was suggesting
that makes a lot more sense. sorry i misunderstood. i've seen people talk about sanding to round off the handles and i assumed that's what you meant. out of curiosity, do the ridges in the frcp not work for you? i find that, when i put this knife in my hand, with the ridges, texturing, and shape of the handle, it's not going anywhere.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:40 pm

the thing that kills me about threads like this is that it's something i would've stumbled upon while researching whether or not i wanted to buy a manix lw. i don't have the luxury of a brick and mortar to try and hold the knife to try it out first, so i read everything i can find. coming from that perspective, finding a thread like this where people are complaining about the shape of the handle would be very off-putting and might turn me away from it completely. no one wants to hold a knife that feels like a lego brick in their hands.

honest feedback is one thing. i'm sure spyderco and prospective buyers appreciate it. however, it's disingenuous at best to push a knife beyond it's design purpose or to try and torture it and then come online and give a negative report about it. "i beat this knife until it failed and it failed!" "i used a 3" blade to trim my entire back yard and i got a blister!" "i dropped my plastic handled knife from 500" and it chipped a little, but a dog chewed on this plastic and it was fine!"

that kind of testing can be useful for us to know limits of the tools, but it needs to be put in proper context (thanks for including the link, btw). you can't just say it's uncomfortable and it shouldn't be that way. it's perfectly comfortable for it's intended purpose. if you want to nitpick the handle, that's fine, but at least include the truth about why you are saying it's a problem and that it's really not a problem. in other words, be fair to the tool, the company, and the person looking to buy a great knife.

this is how we end up with these long threads discussing the difference in plastic vs plastic and which plastic is more comfortable and why. it's all plastic. it's all durable. it's all perfectly acceptable. this whole discussion is just silly.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Evil D » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:53 pm

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:16 pm



i don't think it's dodging the issue to say you should be using the right tool for the job. you used the tool for something it wasn't made for and it worked, but you had to pay a little bit of a price for it. that's how it goes with most things. i do agree that the handles don't have to be squared off, but as sal mentioned elsewhere, it would require a complete redesign of the knife. and looking at the manix 2 lw in my hand right now, i think it would probably make the knife even bigger in the pocket for very little payoff. if you use the knife how it's meant to be used, it's perfectly fine. if you push it a little, it's perfectly fine. if you push it far beyond what it's designed to do, like you did, it will still be fine and you will too, but you may experience some discomfort. if you regularly use a pocket knife to clear a path through the jungle (or trim your backyard), you should consider a different tool. otherwise, the manix is probably fine for normal every day use.


So by comparison I could (and have) used a Military for the very same type of work and did not get a blister on the palm of my hand. This means that debating about using the right tool for the job is irrelevant, since another "wrong" tool for the job did not leave me with a blister on my palm, and there are lots of even better handle designs on other "wrong" tools for the job that are even more ergonomic and more comfortable in the hand that would fair even better for extended use. Nobody is saying it isn't "perfectly fine for normal every day use", I'm saying it is unquestionably inferior to other handle designs because it has blocky/sharp corners for absolutely no good reason at all. It doesn't make the knife better in any way whatsoever, and it hinders the limits of how a person would even want to use the knife. You can even compare it to the standard G10 Manix 2 which is far more comfortable to use. Arguing that the knife isn't meant to be used this way doesn't change the fact that there are other knives being used the same way that do not cause blisters. Setting limits on how something should be used just to defend a flaw is the opposite of progress.
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Evil D
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Evil D » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:03 pm

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:40 pm
the thing that kills me about threads like this is that it's something i would've stumbled upon while researching whether or not i wanted to buy a manix lw. i don't have the luxury of a brick and mortar to try and hold the knife to try it out first, so i read everything i can find. coming from that perspective, finding a thread like this where people are complaining about the shape of the handle would be very off-putting and might turn me away from it completely. no one wants to hold a knife that feels like a lego brick in their hands.

honest feedback is one thing. i'm sure spyderco and prospective buyers appreciate it. however, it's disingenuous at best to push a knife beyond it's design purpose or to try and torture it and then come online and give a negative report about it. "i beat this knife until it failed and it failed!" "i used a 3" blade to trim my entire back yard and i got a blister!" "i dropped my plastic handled knife from 500" and it chipped a little, but a dog chewed on this plastic and it was fine!"

that kind of testing can be useful for us to know limits of the tools, but it needs to be put in proper context (thanks for including the link, btw). you can't just say it's uncomfortable and it shouldn't be that way. it's perfectly comfortable for it's intended purpose. if you want to nitpick the handle, that's fine, but at least include the truth about why you are saying it's a problem and that it's really not a problem. in other words, be fair to the tool, the company, and the person looking to buy a great knife.

this is how we end up with these long threads discussing the difference in plastic vs plastic and which plastic is more comfortable and why. it's all plastic. it's all durable. it's all perfectly acceptable. this whole discussion is just silly.


So who are you to define what a knife should and shouldn't be used for? Who made you the authority on knife design and purpose?

You're reading way too far into this and it even sounds like you have some sort of emotional defense against anything negative that's spoke about these knives.

The thread I originally made and linked here was actually to praise this knife and to prove that it could do serious work without the handle breaking, because at the time there was speculation about whether a linerless FRCP handle could withstand more than casual use. Through that use (which was NOT unreasonable use for a folding knife) I discovered that the shape of the handle could cause hot spots and blisters. It's as simple as that. There is no reason for the edges of a knife handle, be it a letter opener or a bushcraft fixed blade, to be squared off. Square is not ergonomic, and it needs improved. If a prospective buyer happens to come across this information, he can consider his uses and decide if that matters to him or not, he may have no interest in doing heavy carving with his knife, and then the resulting ergonomics may be far less important to him. However, there are slews of guys who do ultra light backpacking and camping who might like this knife for it's light weight, and they would benefit from knowing that if they decide to carve with or do any other bushcraft with it, they will most likely get hot spots on their hands.

What is really silly here is that you're actually defending a poor ergonomic design flaw, for what reason I have no clue. You're not sticking up for a kid who's getting bullied on the playground, there is a detail about a knife design that could be better and people are discussing it. What exactly is there to gain from arguing against improvement?
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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby tvenuto » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:35 pm

If a handle of a knife is uncomfortable in extended use, it matters not a whit if the blade folds. It’s worth noting and discussing. There are all sorts of reasons to use a folder

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:09 pm

i mean, i've gotten blisters using regular lawn maintenance tools that are designed to trim and clean a yard, so it's not really fair to blame a pocket knife for your blisters. to say it's a design flaw because you could do the same thing with other knives and tools without blisters is also not fair.

could the design be better? probably. does it matter for the average user in normal, realistic use? probably not. does the manix feel like a lego in the hand? absolutely not.

i'm not being emotional. i understand your points. and i don't think i'm a knife expert, but i do know that the manix 2 lw was not purpose built for you to trim bushes. it doesn't take an einstein to know that. in the end, the knife worked. it performed the job and let you know that it wasn't designed to do that, even though it could.

all i was trying to point out is that the knife is clearly not meant for this type of use. that doesn't mean that it can't be. just like a few blisters on your hand doesn't mean that it's necessarily flawed.

if you want to have a pocket knife that can be used to survive, you could do a lot worse. in fact, in that type of scenario, i doubt you'd look at your knife and wish it had a more rounded handle. you'd probably be glad to have it.

again, my point is that none of this is really that important. for the people looking at this knife as something they might want to buy, it's valuable information to know that the squared off handle is less than ideal. however, that should also come with the information that it's perfectly fine for everyday use and only causes problems if you plan on trimming your backyard or using it to carve for a long period of time.

finally, if you look back in the thread, i even agreed with you about the handle shape. i said early on that i think the difference has more to do with the shape of the handle than the actual material being used. i agree that it would've been nicer if the handle was more rounded. i just don't think it's a deal breaker and i don't think it's fair to trash the tool because of how it performed outside of it's intended use.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby tvenuto » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:11 pm

Constructive criticism =/= trashing.

If one tool has a disadvantage that another similar tool does not, it's worth noting, and "fair" to do so.

If someone had an issue with something, they don't need to attach a rider stating "but please do buy this if you were considering it, I'm sure it'll be fine for your use since what I decided to do with it is clearly ridiculous." I think it's fine to let people judge for themselves how similar someone's experiences are to theirs.
Last edited by tvenuto on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:13 pm

i guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm not trying to argue against improvement; i'm just offering the opinion that what some people see as a flaw in heavy use is not really relevant most of the time. everything shows a flaw eventually if you push it hard enough.

i hope people aren't turned off from buying a perfectly good knife because of some online nitpicking.
Last edited by ladybug93 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby Tucson Tom » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:16 pm

All of this is greatly entertaining because I have never noticed any of this. Maybe if I worked on a production line in a sweat shop and used my Spyderco 12 hours a day I might get a hot spot or blister. Odds are though, after a few weeks I would get callouses and just rock on.

But in my world, all of this is pretty silly. I like the feel of the Native 5 LW just fine, and am glad that the Manix 2 has the gimping (jimping) -- or should we say, is gimpy like it is. In fact I like things with a rough texture for a sure grip. Not that I am a farmer or anything with work hardened hands. I have grown to like the smooth G10 on that new Cruwear PM2 as well. I guess I'm just easy to please. But I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill with all of this.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby tvenuto » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:17 pm

...and everyone has to decide where the line of "most of the time" is for them, and them alone. Your "most of the time" is not my "most of the time."

If we all had the exact same use, and hands, then spyderco would eventually converge on one perfect knife model for all of us. Just because you've never experienced an issue doesn't make it not an issue.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:23 pm

tvenuto wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:17 pm
...and everyone has to decide where the line of "most of the time" is for them, and them alone. Your "most of the time" is not my "most of the time."

If we all had the exact same use, and hands, then spyderco would eventually converge on one perfect knife model for all of us. Just because you've never experienced an issue doesn't make it not an issue.
if your most of the time is more severe than typical edc cutting tasks, you should be carrying a specific knife purpose built for what you're doing.

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Re: How can you like FRN but hate FRCP?

Postby tvenuto » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:29 pm

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:23 pm
typical edc cutting tasks
There you go again...


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