MAP illegal?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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FCM415
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Re: MAP illegal?

#21

Post by FCM415 »

StuntZombie wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:01 am
What Deacon said. There's nothing that says dealers can't offer a discount through an unadvertised "sale". Basically a dealer can sell at any price they want, but they can't advertise any prices below that 40% off threshold.
*35%

I wonder why the handful of dealers who used to "add to cart for price" do not do so anymore. They must feel they have a moral obligation to oblige. Good for them.
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FCM415
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Re: MAP illegal?

#22

Post by FCM415 »

The Deacon wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:11 am
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm fairly sure the decisions you refer to were about industry wide price fixing, where multiple sellers of similar products (like music CD's) collude and agree not to undersell one another. I think MAP is more like an end run around the 1975 repeal of the old Fair Trade Laws, which allowed manufacturers to require dealers to sell their products at full retail price. MAP, only limits advertised price, so it's not quite the same. You, as a buyer, can always call a dealer and attempt to negotiate a better price.

I doubt Spyderco, or any of the other manufacturers using MAP, would be doing so if it was illegal. There were companies, the pen manufacturer Mont Blanc comes to mind, requiring their dealers to follow MAP years before Spyderco adopted it. You'd think some dealer, somewhere, would have challenged it by now if it was illegal.
Thank you Paul. Pricing on some fine goods have been this way, still a form of price fixing legal or not yes. Just worrisome that it is now being done to curb online sales and a wallet shock when it is so artificial. I'm not seeing new knife stores opening because of this, I hope it really is saving the remaining ones... At many loyal customer's expense (many have no access to brick and mortar).

Seems legal: https://www.thebalancesmb.com/what-is-m ... ce-2890196

So, even if it is meant to curtail online retailers (with or without a physical store) and even the playing field, Spyderco dealers online still can implement "add to cart for price" if they wanted to.BUT THEY DO NOT ANYMORE! Perhaps (a guess) they were made to follow an agreement that even the deepest discounters do not sell below MAP. I have called CS and KW, and they said Spyderco does not allow us to sell below MAP.. National Knives may still be able to, as they responded with disapproval to Spyderco's MAP but haven't purchased new Spydies so I have not tried. I buy solely from exchanges now.

This is such an issue for me because MAP implementation has affected the only way I can purchase Spydercos as there is not a halfway decent brick and mortar dealer within 500 miles of me. It's at least a 10% artificial price hike (pre-MAP best discounters were 45% off MSRP). Inflation (normal), yearly 5% raise, and the eventual worsening of MAP % adds up.
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FCM415
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Re: MAP illegal?

#23

Post by FCM415 »

Anyone with such luck...Please PM me or share with the forum of a brick and mortar dealer we can call and order from that can price match pre online MAP prices or better.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#24

Post by Nate »

Hopefully this will help some, I'm paraphrasing myself from a while back...

MAP and price fixing are actually quite different concepts. MAP is legal and involves the manufacturer's right to impose resale price restrictions vertically along their distribution chain (wholesalers, dealers).

Price fixing is illegal. It's a horizontal arrangement among competitors to decrease competition. This would be like Spyderco, Benchmade, and ZT all colluding to set prices at an artificially high level or otherwise conspiring to reduce competition in some way.

*eta, the best "deals" anymore are on discontinued models and when Ebay has 10%, 15%, or 20% off coupons that can be applied to Spydercos without the dealers violating MAP.

Also, inflation is a beach and it continually creeps and squeezes everywhere. It's not limited to Spyderco and it's not really their fault, though they may need to look for new ways to innovate, carve out new niches, lower costs and corresponding msrps, etc... to stay competitive.
Last edited by Nate on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FCM415
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Re: MAP illegal?

#25

Post by FCM415 »

Nate wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:23 am
Hopefully this will help some, I'm paraphrasing myself from a while back...

MAP and price fixing are actually quite different concepts. MAP is legal and involves the manufacturer's right to impose resale price restrictions vertically along their distribution chain (wholesalers, dealers).

Price fixing is illegal. It's a horizontal arrangement among competitors to decrease competition. This would be like Spyderco, Benchmade, and ZT all colluding to set prices at an artificially high level or otherwise conspiring to reduce competition in some way.
Thanks Nate. Any leads on dealers that are not horizontally aligned with MAP pricing :D
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Re: MAP illegal?

#26

Post by Nate »

FCM415 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:27 am
Thanks Nate. Any leads on dealers that are not horizontally aligned with MAP pricing :D

Only what I added to my post above... Ebay and disco's.
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FCM415
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Re: MAP illegal?

#27

Post by FCM415 »

Nate wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:23 am

*eta, the best "deals" anymore are on discontinued models and when Ebay has 10%, 15%, or 20% off coupons that can be applied to Spydercos without the dealers violating MAP.

Also, inflation is a beach and it continually creeps and squeezes everywhere. It's not limited to Spyderco and it's not really their fault, though they may need to look for new ways to innovate, carve out new niches, lower costs and corresponding msrps, etc... to stay competitive.
Argh, those Ebay coupons are rare and expire so fast (hours to a day)! But an option.

Yep inflation is normal. Also, if Sal needs to raise prices at whatever % to remain comfortable I totally understand. Just the artificial nature of online MAP enforcement I detest.

I'm an RN, my wife is a Nurse Practictioner (NP). But I am a frugal SOB! I'd pay Sal 20% if he says that's what it costs to keep the workers healthy and machines running though.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#28

Post by Nate »

FCM415 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:42 am
Yep inflation is normal...

Sadly I guess it is normal, and intentional, but I wouldn't say it's natural. Probably shouldn't go too far down the monetary and economic rabbit hole here, but this excerpt from Keynes (in 1919! :eek:) is a good read:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheig ... ation.html
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Re: MAP illegal?

#29

Post by The Deacon »

FCM415 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:20 am
Anyone with such luck...Please PM me or share with the forum of a brick and mortar dealer we can call and order from that can price match pre online MAP prices or better.

I'm not going to give out any names, but I will say that it's not just B&M stores you can ask for a better price. Most internet dealers have phone numbers you can call to place an order. I suspect that your best chances would be with a dealer with whom you've done considerable business. Loyalty tends to be looked on more favorably than naked entitlement. And you stand a better chance of getting a break on normal production models than on hot Sprints. Still, it never hurts to ask. Worst thing a dealer can say is no, in which case you're free to call another, and another, and another.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#30

Post by ChrisinHove »

Nate wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:06 am
FCM415 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:42 am
Yep inflation is normal...

Sadly I guess it is normal, and intentional, but I wouldn't say it's natural. Probably shouldn't go too far down the monetary and economic rabbit hole here, but this excerpt from Keynes (in 1919! :eek:) is a good read:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheig ... ation.html
A good read, yes, but must be read in context of the hyperinflation of post WW1 Germany. Most modern western economies rely on modest growth and therefore inflation, and so it is engineered by the governments and central banks. If one thinks we can live without it, just look at the effects “stagflation” had upon Japan over the last decades.

The effects of excessive inflation in some market areas are certainly very pernicious, though. If you look at housing, the prospect of earning more through house price growth/inflation than by actually working fuelled the 2008 credit crunch. The consequence of high housing prices has created a generational schism (here) between those who own (and have profitted enormously) and those who may never be able to afford to own.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#31

Post by FCM415 »

Nate wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:06 am
FCM415 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:42 am
Yep inflation is normal...

Sadly I guess it is normal, and intentional, but I wouldn't say it's natural. Probably shouldn't go too far down the monetary and economic rabbit hole here, but this excerpt from Keynes (in 1919! :eek:) is a good read:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheig ... ation.html
*"normal"
Yep as I meant as in average joe has no control over and arguably is inevitable.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#32

Post by Nate »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:15 am
A good read, yes, but must be read in context of the hyperinflation of post WW1 Germany. Most modern western economies rely on modest growth and therefore inflation, and so it is engineered by the governments and central banks. If one thinks we can live without it, just look at the effects “stagflation” had upon Japan over the last decades.

The effects of excessive inflation in some market areas are certainly very pernicious, though. If you look at housing, the prospect of earning more through house price growth/inflation than by actually working fuelled the 2008 credit crunch. The consequence of high housing prices has created a generational schism (here) between those who own (and have profitted enormously) and those who may never be able to afford to own.

Your points are well taken, and yes, inflation is necessary under the current framework. And to imagine a fundamental rethinking of current models is a pie-in-the-sky proposition. (Get it?: "PITS" :D)

Interesting though if you think about it. Here we are ~100yrs later and the lens has shifted from the fallout of WW1 and the beginnings of the Weimar hyperinflation, to subprime loans, the financial crisis, bailouts, quantitative easing, and the reflation trade. Round and round we go...
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Re: MAP illegal?

#33

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Multiple dealers on eBay sell below MAP through the “make offer” option.
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sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
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Re: MAP illegal?

#34

Post by TomAiello »

The way I see this, a manufacturer can choose whatever criteria they want for dealership.

If the prospective dealer doesn't think the criteria are worth the rewards of being a dealer, they simply don't become a dealer. If the manufacturer makes the criteria too difficult, they have insufficient dealers and re-visit their criteria.

I really don't see a need for government intervention here.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#35

Post by sal »

Hi FCM,

How can I help you?

sal
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Re: MAP illegal?

#36

Post by ABX2011 »

If you follow the deals thread, you'd see how frequently one can buy Spydercos for less than MAP.
Many eBay sellers use the "best offer" feature. Combine that with a coupon and you save a lot.
Amazon also has many Spydercos sold through them listed for less than MAP.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#37

Post by Bodog »

An authorized dealer is really nothing more than a representative of a manufacturer.

Say you sold vacuum cleaners door to door. You have several vacuums to sell. Would the company be OK with you as their representative lowering the prices of the vacuums to undercut other salemen to drum up more sales for yourself? I'd think not. Now conversely, if you were able to sell them for more than what the company said, would they really mind? Probably not.

Point is that authorized dealers aren't resellers. Resellers can set the price at whatever level they want. Authorized dealers, if they want to maintain their status as an authorized dealer, have to set their prices in accordance with whoever is authorizing them to sell the product in an offical capacity. In this case it's spyderco. They're working with people who sell their products on spyderco's behalf. All of the logistical mechanisms that make it easier for us as consumers to make returns, choose which specific knife we want, know we're buying actual spyderco knives and not knockoffs, etc. are there and protect us as consumers in exchange for being an authorized distributor of spyderco products. Since they're distributors of spyderco's products, do you not believe spyderco can demand of them to not undercut one another to protect the entire distribution chain? I'd think they absolutely could. If a company doesn't agree with spyderco's prices I'm sure they could cancel their contract with spyderco and stop being an authorized distributor of spyderco's products. Nothing is "being fixed" here. I personally like competition, tbh, but i can understand a company protecting their other distributors from sharks who can and do loss-lead because they're so massive that other sales cover the overhead. It's how you block monopolies. And I'm happy that spyderco is defending normal people from companies like amazon and walmart.

Look at what happens to a lot of small companies who become dependent on selling in walmart. Walmart comes in like the vultures they are and demand the manufacturers to lower the costs. Doesn't matter if it strains or even breaks the company manufacturing something. Walmart will demand it and you will comply because your company is dependent on selling in walmart stores. Spyderco i think made the right decision to protect itself from companies that would absolutely bully them into selling at a loss. They're keeping their options open and not becoming too reliant on amazon and walmart and other mega corporations.

I'd like to buy a good spyderco knife at the lowest possible cost to myself. Who wouldn't? But not at the long term cost of shutting spyderco down. I tend to like spyderco as a company.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#38

Post by PStone »

Bodog wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:59 am
An authorized dealer is really nothing more than a representative of a manufacturer.

Say you sold vacuum cleaners door to door. You have several vacuums to sell. Would the company be OK with you as their representative lowering the prices of the vacuums to undercut other salemen to drum up more sales for yourself? I'd think not. Now conversely, if you were able to sell them for more than what the company said, would they really mind? Probably not.

Point is that authorized dealers aren't resellers. Resellers can set the price at whatever level they want. Authorized dealers, if they want to maintain their status as an authorized dealer, have to set their prices in accordance with whoever is authorizing them to sell the product in an offical capacity. In this case it's spyderco. They're working with people who sell their products on spyderco's behalf. All of the logistical mechanisms that make it easier for us as consumers to make returns, choose which specific knife we want, know we're buying actual spyderco knives and not knockoffs, etc. are there and protect us as consumers in exchange for being an authorized distributor of spyderco products. Since they're distributors of spyderco's products, do you not believe spyderco can demand of them to not undercut one another to protect the entire distribution chain? I'd think they absolutely could. If a company doesn't agree with spyderco's prices I'm sure they could cancel their contract with spyderco and stop being an authorized distributor of spyderco's products. Nothing is "being fixed" here. I personally like competition, tbh, but i can understand a company protecting their other distributors from sharks who can and do loss-lead because they're so massive that other sales cover the overhead. It's how you block monopolies. And I'm happy that spyderco is defending normal people from companies like amazon and walmart.

Look at what happens to a lot of small companies who become dependent on selling in walmart. Walmart comes in like the vultures they are and demand the manufacturers to lower the costs. Doesn't matter if it strains or even breaks the company manufacturing something. Walmart will demand it and you will comply because your company is dependent on selling in walmart stores. Spyderco i think made the right decision to protect itself from companies that would absolutely bully them into selling at a loss. They're keeping their options open and not becoming too reliant on amazon and walmart and other mega corporations.

I'd like to buy a good spyderco knife at the lowest possible cost to myself. Who wouldn't? But not at the long term cost of shutting spyderco down. I tend to like spyderco as a company.

Very nice post. Makes MAP very easy to understand.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#39

Post by ABX2011 »

Except Amazon does sell for under MAP. A quick search and I found the Vallotton, Lil' Subhilt and Sliverax listed below MAP. I'm sure there are many more.
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Re: MAP illegal?

#40

Post by bearfacedkiller »

ABX2011 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:14 pm
Except Amazon does sell for under MAP. A quick search and I found the Vallotton, Lil' Subhilt and Sliverax listed below MAP. I'm sure there are many more.
They are the largest retailer on the planet. They call the shots.

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-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
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