Your General HRC Preference?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

What is your General HRC Preference?

59 and under
3
11%
60 and higher
24
89%
 
Total votes: 27

Eli Chaps
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Your General HRC Preference?

#1

Post by Eli Chaps »

Now, corrosion resistance, blade design, geometry, specific use, and so on not withstanding, I'm curious what people's general preference for steel hardness. It seems that these days everything has to be about the highest HRC possible but I know there's a lot of folks out there who still like their "softer" steels.

Me? I'm fascinated but some of the high HRC steels, especially ZDP-189 and I really enjoy experiencing them but in general I like "softer" steels. To be honest, I'm not even sure I'm that thrilled with dropping BD1 in favor of BD1N. I don't have any experience with BD1N and that obviously plays into it but I really like BD1. It's a really good steel. I love VG10 and don't really have an issue with Spyderco's 8CrMoV.

I'd rather see the extra production costs put into the knife design itself than some high-hardness steel. I'm not talking about sprints or use-specific knives just in general. From EDC to the kitchen, I like softer stainless steels that sharpen up quick and take some use without much scoffing.

It's sort of a double-edged sword (no pun intended...I think...) in that I love that the collective knife community pushes for various steels as it gives us all a chance to experience new things but I also think the collective knife community puts too much emphasis on the latest "super" steels. But I think there's a place for a manufacturers to actually market the sharpen-ability of softer steels. I mean think about it, how often do we see people asking about sharpening? I think a lot of people read and watch videos and become convinced that they need XXX steel or the knife is a rip off or whatever when there is just so much more to it than the steel.

Also, I know that ratings can vary a bit. 59 can be 60, 62 can be 63 and so on. I'm just trying to keep it simple.

So, curious what others think...
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#2

Post by Bodog »

I cannot in good conscience vote. There are too many variables at play. I'd be disappointed with 4v and M4 at less than 62. I'd be disappointed with 3V at 62 or more.

Not just that but I'd want a paring knife at 68+ RC if possible and I'd want a boning knife at 55. A serrated bread knife could be 55 or 68, wouldn't matter that much.

An edc pocket could be at 55 and I'd be happy given certain variables and it could be 64 and I'd be happy given certain variables and if you took the same knives and flip flopped the hardness I'd be totally unhappy.

There's no way to answer because there are literally so many things that go into making a knife and hardness is just one of them. I'd prefer an knife to have a quality heat treatment and be a little too soft than have a shoddy heat treatment and be too brittle. Same way in reverse, given another set of variables I'd rather have a knife with a quality heat treatment and be too hard than to have a shoddy heat treatment and roll and dent way too easily.

Sorry man. Can't vote.

And that's not even getting into high temp vs low temp tempering and everything else adds value regardless of literal hardness.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#3

Post by The Meat man »

I used to think that the higher the HRC value, the better the steel. But, as I've gained more knowledge about steels, metallurgy, alloys, and heat treating, I began to understand that there are many more factors that go into a steel's performance than HRC ratings.

I'm something of a steel geek, and I really enjoy trying out the new latest and greatest super steels, but I also continue to appreciate the softer, lower alloyed "budget" steels like 8Cr13MoV. And to be honest, these days I hardly even think about what the HRC is. (Probably one reason is because Spyderco never lists the HRC rating.)

So I guess my vote would probably lean toward the 60 and up simply because most of the newer steels are in this range, but like you I do appreciate the softer ones too.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#4

Post by jpm2 »

Above 60 for sure. I can't stand an edge that rolls when scraping corroded electrical connections.
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awa54
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#5

Post by awa54 »

Not that I would refuse to buy or use a sub 59HRC blade, more that my favorite blade steels perform best at 60 or higher and in most folding knife applications my usage isn't harsh enough to need that final degree of toughness.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#6

Post by Pelagic »

You could probably add a 63+ and higher and spread out the results more. I'm no expert but i think i mostly enjoy low to mid 60's. But eager to try REX 121. Even if it's at 72 (hopefully more like 68-70).
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#7

Post by Sjucaveman »

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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#8

Post by The Mastiff »

I used to think that the higher the HRC value, the better the steel. But, as I've gained more knowledge about steels, metallurgy, alloys, and heat treating, I began to understand that there are many more factors that go into a steel's performance than HRC ratings.
A lot of people do this just as many think higher wear resistance is higher quality. Learning steel is almost easier than learning what ones own needs and likes are. Too many let others tell them what good or best is.

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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#9

Post by fanglekai »

The poll doesn't make sense. Without knowing the alloy the HRC is irrelevant.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#10

Post by razorsharp »

Too many variables. Different steels are optimum at different hardnesses.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#11

Post by JonLeBlanc »

Yeah I can’t really vote on this either because I just can’t make a judgment on a single variable abstracted from the whole. An interesting question, but needs more qualifiers to have any real explanatory value.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#12

Post by Evil D »

Yeah this is really super gray area stuff but I guess if you judged by what I own the most of it would seem I prefer harder steels than soft but I really don't think a poll will give you any usable info.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#13

Post by TomAiello »

For folders? Or fixed blades?

I like folders that run harder, with more wear resistance. I like fixed blades, especially larger (4" and more) fixed blades to run tougher, which generally means lower HRC.

Basically, I want my small (EDC folders) blades optimized for edge holding, and my larger (fixed blades) optimized for toughness.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#14

Post by wrdwrght »

I can’t say I know (so I didn’t vote).

I do feel safe in saying that my preference will not be found at HRC extremes. But my metrics are considerably more naive and likely more encompassing than this property alone.

Of the fifteen or so steels Spyderco has put in knives I have, none has disappointed me, that is, except for plain-edge H1.

But, thanks to Vivi, I’ve found a more acute edge on PE H1 makes it last significantly longer. I think this fact is instructive. Geometry matters enough to change the performance that an HRC value might otherwise suggest.

Even if Sal weren’t so cagey about what hardnesses he seeks, I do believe a custom maker aiming to achieve Spyderco’s level of performance in a given steel would need more than a CATRA machine to succeed.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#15

Post by bearfacedkiller »

This comes down to application.

I just like knives. Everything from Kabars with 1095 at 58 up to Maxamet and ZDP in the high 60's.

Many fixed blades and western kitchen knives are 60 or lower. Many pocket knives and Japanese kitchen knives are above 60. Different design philosophies and different intended uses.

I am a steel geek but I try not to be a steel snob. I would rather have a well designed knife in 1095 at 58 than a poorly designed knife in M4 at 64. The knife community seems to put a strange emphasis on steel choices and hardness and many people sound to me like they believe that that defines the knife. Overall design and geometry define the knife and the steel choice and heat treat should compliment that design/geometry. The goal is to achieve some synergy through multiple factors complimenting each other.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#16

Post by tvenuto »

Meh. People who are overly concerned about the HRC of their Spyderco are like people who are overly concerned with their heart rate when exercising. It’s not the only factor, and a system that knows what it’s doing is in charge of it anyway. Just because it’s easy to measure doesn’t mean it tells you all that much.

BFK said it nicer, but this is how I feel too.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#17

Post by Chris_P_Bacon »

What "general" final length, width, and thickness, should a gun belt be? Depends on hip size, belt loops, weight of load out, etc.

HRC is just the result of tweaking a heat treat to bring out the qualities you desire from a particular steel or alloy. What qualities are you seeking?

What matters to many is that the steel isn't so hard that it becomes brittle and chips under normal use, or even hard use testing. See blunt cut's tests for more info (his tube name is luong la).

Also, that it isn't so soft that it doesn't hold an edge. Edge retention is very desirable for most people. When trying to get work done, who wants to stop and touch up an edge?

The sweet spot lays somewhere between those two extremes, and as others have mentioned these limits are different for each steel/alloy.

What really matters is knowing that the manufacturer took the time prior to a production run, to do a test run for heat treat performance. That didn't skimp, because they cared enough about their reputation to run, sayyyyy, ten blades thru heat treat. Each one with a different heat treatment for that particular steel, at that particular thickness, and then test those finalists to find out which one comes closest to that sweet spot in performance that they are looking for. Those data points can then be used for future production as well.

I look at HRC as part of the end result and not the goal. Heat treat, quench, cryo and temper affect certain qualities of the steel, like toughness, edge holding, stain resistance, grain structure, ductility and more.

Had you specified which steel, probably would of helped.
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Eli Chaps
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#18

Post by Eli Chaps »

*sigh*
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#19

Post by Eli Chaps »

Evil D wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:33 pm
Yeah this is really super gray area stuff but I guess if you judged by what I own the most of it would seem I prefer harder steels than soft but I really don't think a poll will give you any usable info.

Thank you David. That's all I was really wondering but obviously didn't explain it well enough. I know there's a ton of factors, I was just curious about what folks tend to gravitate to. When I look across all my knives, kitchen ones included, I realized I have intentionally bought more softer steels than harder ones. Often there's no real choice, you want a specific design and it comes in a specific steel but when there are choices, I realized I'm leaning to softer rather than harder.
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Re: Your General HRC Preference?

#20

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Eli, this is a good thread. I don’t think you got the response you were looking for and I think we all basically told you something you already knew but this thread is likely very informative for those who are earlier in their journey learning about knives.
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