The Return of S60V/440V

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Deadboxhero
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The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:55 am

This is an older formula that is a predecessor to s30v
At the turn of the 21st century
Crucible engineers modified 440c by tweaking the formula and adding alot of Carbon and Vanadium then used their partical metal technology. Hence the old name "440V"
Until it was named S60V.

Phil Wilson has a cool article about it on his website but I can't find his site anymore.


It had hardenablity issues and the stuff could only get under 60hrc.

Looking back it was considered a big flop.


It's been listed available again on the Niagara website for the past few years in the online store

I've also seen some knives made in it at the Eugene knife show made after the early 2000s


I know there was a military made in the steel but I feel that high hardness is when the stuff could be interesting.

With newer HT methods and with rumors of Crucible "tweaking" the formula to improve the hardenablity I've gotten my interest piqued.

With a hardess of 62hrc we might have something nice that could hit that sweet spot between s30v and 20cv.

I asked some of the guys who had the s60v knives at the show what they thought but they still had "belt" marks on there bevels and couldn't comment on any attributes or particulars.

A shame since my curiosity is burning a hole through me.

I'll update this thread with testing soon.
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sal
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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby sal » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:15 am

Hi Shawn,

Spyderco was the first production company to use Crucibles particle metallurgy in production knives. I personally went to Crucible with crew to begin the project in the mid 90's. We began with S60V while is was still being called CPM 440V. We had no problem getting it hard, but in a hi 50's to low 60's it was so brittle that it would crack if dropped on concrete. We continue to experiment until we reached the conclusion that 55/56 worked best for the steel in knife blades. In the end, we dropped it. It was too hard to sharpen for customers, though edge retention was good. I don't think we would use it again.

sal

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby NoFair » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:10 am

I'd take S30V, S90V etc. over it any day. It's a decent steel, sharpens fine with diamonds, takes a while on the sharpmaker, edge holding is good and I haven't had any real issues with chipping with my Lil'Temp in CPM 440V and I've used it hard. It seems to loose a fine edge pretty quickly, but stays at a decent sharpness a long.

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby dogrunner » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:29 am

I still have my Lil Temp (leaf). I have not used it in a while because it is kind of bulky. The original "little big knife." It is very sturdy feeling, and after I modded the handle, very strong and comfortable grip. One of the first compression lock models too, and with its thicker blade stock but broad full flat grind, it seemed very robust yet still a good cutter. All in a compact package. MBC rates, back when spyderco was doing that. I never had a problem sharpening it, using the diamond rods. But the word back then was keep it touched up and don't let it get too dull or it will be a chore to sharpen.
I love the knife still and 440V is a decent steel, especially for the time, but now prefer other steels - Cruwear, 3V, 4V, M4, etc for a strong and reasonbly wear-resistant blade.

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby FK » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:49 pm

I owned several Military knives with CPM 440V in the late 1990's.
They did hold an edge well and would easily restore with diamond paste strops.

I sold off all of the plain edge and now have only one fully serrated edge CPM440V.

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:16 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:15 am
Hi Shawn,

Spyderco was the first production company to use Crucibles particle metallurgy in production knives. I personally went to Crucible with crew to begin the project in the mid 90's. We began with S60V while is was still being called CPM 440V. We had no problem getting it hard, but in a hi 50's to low 60's it was so brittle that it would crack if dropped on concrete. We continue to experiment until we reached the conclusion that 55/56 worked best for the steel in knife blades. In the end, we dropped it. It was too hard to sharpen for customers, though edge retention was good. I don't think we would use it again.

sal
Yea If it wasn't for the knife show in Eugene I would not have cared, old news, But it's definitely captured my imagination with possiblites after tlking to other makers, customers and suppliers. (Too bad I didn't make to Atlanta, would have had my MIND BLOWN)

I just got done talking to John Shiesley on the phone at Crucible, He said there has been some changes to the formula since those early days after the reorganization in 2008, they have improved things with the powders and the HIP process and hinted that they also do CQI on there alloys.

He said they brought back a new melt after requests from Niagaras customer base.

The spec looks nice, very aggressive, I've always wondered why it wasn't working.

Maybe with the new melt and some tweaks in HT it's radical, I'm so curious I have to know.
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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby SpyderNut » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:03 pm

My first Military was in 440V. I loved that knife and steel... Too bad I traded it many years ago for a NIB Ti Lum.
:spyder: -Michael

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:31 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:15 am
Hi Shawn,

Spyderco was the first production company to use Crucibles particle metallurgy in production knives. I personally went to Crucible with crew to begin the project in the mid 90's. We began with S60V while is was still being called CPM 440V. We had no problem getting it hard, but in a hi 50's to low 60's it was so brittle that it would crack if dropped on concrete. We continue to experiment until we reached the conclusion that 55/56 worked best for the steel in knife blades. In the end, we dropped it. It was too hard to sharpen for customers, though edge retention was good. I don't think we would use it again.

sal
Now please Sal don't throw out the "baby with the bathwater" because I still maintain that 440V is still one of the better blade steels you guys used for Spyderedged blades. I will admit for as hard as it was to sharpen>> to be truthful it was a "MONSTER" to sharpen in plain edge :eek: But I still use two of the older full Spyderedged models in 440V and it's truly one of my all time favorite blade steels for Spyderedges IMO.

Being that most of it only tested out at 55 to 56 on the Rockwell scale probably explains to me why it was such a good blade steel for Spyderedges. I hope to get my hands on one of the older 440V, full SE Military models again some day. That was a true beast of a serrated blade in 440V.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you all ever get anymore 440V you can at least use it in Spyderedged blades. I rank it along with ATS-55 and AUS-8 as being my top 3 favorite blade steels for Spyderedges.

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby ABX2011 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:38 pm

Could make for an interesting Mule Team if that project is still alive.

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Phil Wilson » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 pm

440V discussion Wayne Goddard wrote an article I think for Blade magazine on 440V and introduced it . Like Sal this is the first PM grade I used. The idea that it had a low potential hardness probably came from me since at the time I was sending it out for heat treat and it came back in the 57 range. I was limited to about 1950 f. on my furnace and it really needed 2000 plus. Later I built a new furnace that would go to 22200 and did manage some blades up in the RC 60 range. At about that time 420V (CPM S90V ) came out and it was introduced as an up grade for 440V so 440v just kind of faded away. I have not tried the new introduction but hope to get around to it.

I just tried my website and it came up ok but had to clear my cache since the website it was updated a few weeks ago. Maybe this post should go to a different topic? Phil

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby sal » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:04 pm

Thanx Phil,

Always enjoy your input.

sal

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby GarageBoy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:42 am

Did s90v come out before s30v? How did s30v become the cutlery steel for everyone?

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Phil Wilson » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:03 am

Garage Boy, Yes CPM S90V came out before CPM S30V. Problem was that S90v req'd a furnace that would go to 2100 or so and most custom guys did not have the equipment to heat treat it. It has excellent wear resistance and that makes for good edge holding but the other side of the coin is it is hard to grind and finish. At the same time Chris Reeves was looking for a an up grade steel for his work and asked Crucible to come up with something that still had vanadium carbides for wear, had a CPM base, but would be easier to work with. CPM S30V was born and later since Chris had requested it became a steel "developed for knife blades" . I got a sample to try in that time frame and made a few knives with it and wrote an article about it. Also during that time Spydeco was also looking at it and the history on that is better told by Sal. Now CPM S90V has been gradually tweaked and the learning curve for heat treat and grinding S90v has made it possible for it to be used over a wider range of makers. Phil,

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby dj moonbat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am

In a world where there's already S30V, S35VN, S90V, S110V, CPM20V (and its near-twins from other manufacturers), XHP, and Elmax, is there really a "sweet spot" that remains unhit somehow?

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:45 am

dj moonbat wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am
In a world where there's already S30V, S35VN, S90V, S110V, CPM20V (and its near-twins from other manufacturers), XHP, and Elmax, is there really a "sweet spot" that remains unhit somehow?
It's the details, the nuisances between them at the edge that's exciting, finding the "flow"

If I didn't care about the details, I'd probably just carry a tenancious and Norton India stone and move on with my life.
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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Doc Dan » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:47 am

That history is fascinating.
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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby anagarika » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:52 am

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:45 am
dj moonbat wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am
In a world where there's already S30V, S35VN, S90V, S110V, CPM20V (and its near-twins from other manufacturers), XHP, and Elmax, is there really a "sweet spot" that remains unhit somehow?
It's the details, the nuisances between them at the edge that's exciting, finding the "flow"

If I didn't care about the details, I'd probably just carry a tenancious and Norton India stone and move on with my life.
Shawn,

Probably you meant ‘nuances’ ... ;)

What do you think using it with CWF (bluncut’s) HT? Had to throw it out there :D

I failed to find S110V good for my use case, falling back to XHP. It (XHP) is VG10 on steroids IMO.
Chris :spyder:

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby N. Brian Huegel » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:07 pm

Steve Green of Dunn Knives (http://www.dunnknives.com/) found a way of heat treating 440V (S60V) to a hardness in the low 60s without the chipping issues. He individually quenched each blade between two water-cooled (think radiator) aluminum plates. This more rapid 'freezing' increased the toughness tremendously. I sharpened several dozen of his knives for a late customer of ours and can attest to their incredible hardness/wear resistance. My thinner (15dps) bevels required a new 60 micro 3M belt to cut cleanly and quickly, and that belt would only last for 10-12 5" hunting knives! Of the over 50,000 knives that I have sharpened, these S60V Dunn knives were by far the toughest blades to establish an edge. I resharpened many of his after years of hunting and camping use/abuse and they never had a chipping issue. I spoke with Steve several times about his unique quenching and he said that he had spoken to Dick Barber @Crucible and even sent a few blades for testing, but it was never pursued after the break-up of Crucible. I do not know if Steve uses the same technique with his current S30V blades.

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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:06 pm

anagarika wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:52 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:45 am
dj moonbat wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am
In a world where there's already S30V, S35VN, S90V, S110V, CPM20V (and its near-twins from other manufacturers), XHP, and Elmax, is there really a "sweet spot" that remains unhit somehow?
It's the details, the nuisances between them at the edge that's exciting, finding the "flow"

If I didn't care about the details, I'd probably just carry a tenancious and Norton India stone and move on with my life.
Shawn,

Probably you meant ‘nuances’ ... ;)

What do you think using it with CWF (bluncut’s) HT? Had to throw it out there :D

I failed to find S110V good for my use case, falling back to XHP. It (XHP) is VG10 on steroids IMO.
Haha thanks bro, Yea Luong can do some crazy stuff I like his Niolox
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Re: The Return of S60V/440V

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:16 pm

N. Brian Huegel wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:07 pm
Steve Green of Dunn Knives (http://www.dunnknives.com/) found a way of heat treating 440V (S60V) to a hardness in the low 60s without the chipping issues. He individually quenched each blade between two water-cooled (think radiator) aluminum plates. This more rapid 'freezing' increased the toughness tremendously. I sharpened several dozen of his knives for a late customer of ours and can attest to their incredible hardness/wear resistance. My thinner (15dps) bevels required a new 60 micro 3M belt to cut cleanly and quickly, and that belt would only last for 10-12 5" hunting knives! Of the over 50,000 knives that I have sharpened, these S60V Dunn knives were by far the toughest blades to establish an edge. I resharpened many of his after years of hunting and camping use/abuse and they never had a chipping issue. I spoke with Steve several times about his unique quenching and he said that he had spoken to Dick Barber @Crucible and even sent a few blades for testing, but it was never pursued after the break-up of Crucible. I do not know if Steve uses the same technique with his current S30V blades.
Yea facinating,

I think it's interesting that the composition is similar to Elmax but s60v has a low working hardness. It seemed like there was a problem with the melt and generally makers weren't as knowledge about how to HT it as well as using diamond abrasives and sharing of effective Sharpening techniques and knowledge wasn't as prevalent. The perfect Storm that killed the steel.


Its just facinating that one of these steels n the chart is awesome (Elmax)and the other is just horrible (s60v) with the composition being so simliar. It definitely shows the hidden complexity to metallurgy and that the charts aren't the end all be all. It's more of a "practice"

I'd definitely like to explore more s60v there might be a way to get that composition to work great and hit a nice sweet spot. Or perhaps a red herring. Curiousity demands it.


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