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Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:10 pm
by Enactive
awa54 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Dang! my Endura must have been the one and only dud in the whole run... I have recurring breakouts in the edge, big (over 1mm long) sections that just crack away leaving flat spots on the edge. That and sharpening is wretched as well, with wire edge a-plenty (and no, the cracked off edge isn't just wire edge that has broken off). It's not even like it's seen any difficult use either
I guess I need to finally sharpen up my V-Toku2 Delica and see if it has the same issues, though from the sound of it in this thread it shouldn't.
I would send that Endura to Golden.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 5:45 am
by Marulaghost
JS_KnifeNerd wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:30 pm
Hey, it's JS_KnifeNerd :spyder:
Would someone kindly teach me about these steels? I would always like to know more about more steels and this sounds like a good learning opportunity. Thank you!!!
Hey JS. Sorry if this reply took a long time. I only just saw it.
So V TOKU2 is a pretty simple fine grain high-carbon steel.
It's typically used in some kitchen knives over there
It may be a Japanese produced steel but i know they get the ore from a particular mine in Sweden.
I'm by no means a metal expert but it's somewhat similar to 52100 in composition. The big difference is it has tungsten in it instead of chromium (i think?) Which produces tungsten carbides.
I'd you want to know more i would actually suggest checking out one of our own forums members BIG BROWN BEAR on YouTube. He has a geek-out discussing the composition of the metal and also a demonstration or two of one in hand. I subscribed myself a little bit ago.
Hope some of this helps
I love my dragonfly in it and hope it isn't just a one and done story for Spyderco
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 7:07 am
by awa54
Enactive wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 11:10 pm
awa54 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Dang! my Endura must have been the one and only dud in the whole run... I have recurring breakouts in the edge, big (over 1mm long) sections that just crack away leaving flat spots on the edge. That and sharpening is wretched as well, with wire edge a-plenty (and no, the cracked off edge isn't just wire edge that has broken off). It's not even like it's seen any difficult use either
I guess I need to finally sharpen up my V-Toku2 Delica and see if it has the same issues, though from the sound of it in this thread it shouldn't.
I would send that Endura to Golden.
To what end? The Endura Sprint has already sold through, so there's no chance of a replacement...
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:14 am
by Enactive
awa54 wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 7:07 am
Enactive wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 11:10 pm
awa54 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Dang! my Endura must have been the one and only dud in the whole run... I have recurring breakouts in the edge, big (over 1mm long) sections that just crack away leaving flat spots on the edge. That and sharpening is wretched as well, with wire edge a-plenty (and no, the cracked off edge isn't just wire edge that has broken off). It's not even like it's seen any difficult use either
I guess I need to finally sharpen up my V-Toku2 Delica and see if it has the same issues, though from the sound of it in this thread it shouldn't.
I would send that Endura to Golden.
To what end? The Endura Sprint has already sold through, so there's no chance of a replacement...
To see what they do for you. It's clearly a manufacturing defect (bad HT), no? Maybe a direct replacement isn't possible, but if not, a different functional knife is.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 9:22 am
by jpm2
awa54 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Dang! my Endura must have been the one and only dud in the whole run... I have recurring breakouts in the edge, big (over 1mm long) sections that just crack away leaving flat spots on the edge. That and sharpening is wretched as well, with wire edge a-plenty (and no, the cracked off edge isn't just wire edge that has broken off). It's not even like it's seen any difficult use either
I guess I need to finally sharpen up my V-Toku2 Delica and see if it has the same issues, though from the sound of it in this thread it shouldn't.
Sounds like a similar issue I had with a brand new knife in a different steel. The edge crumbled away as I sharpened regardless of the abrasive or grit size. After removing about 1mm of edge, it finally started acting right.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:01 pm
by A.S.O.K.A
awa54 wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2019 10:01 pm
Dang! my Endura must have been the one and only dud in the whole run... I have recurring breakouts in the edge, big (over 1mm long) sections that just crack away leaving flat spots on the edge. That and sharpening is wretched as well, with wire edge a-plenty (and no, the cracked off edge isn't just wire edge that has broken off). It's not even like it's seen any difficult use either
I guess I need to finally sharpen up my V-Toku2 Delica and see if it has the same issues, though from the sound of it in this thread it shouldn't.
Sorry to hear about the cracked edge( HT issue). As for the wire edge, my dragonfly V-toku2 got some durring sharpening. I softly ran the edge on a rough side of leather and continued stropping. Wire edge was gone and I was left with a fine performing edge
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:19 pm
by awa54
The Endura has a new edge with enough stock removed to be well past the damaged areas... Now some pocket time and reasonable use ought to tell if this is a bad HT through and through, or just a surface irregularity.
An interesting note: there was less tendency to form a wire edge this time around, even with lots of working the edge with very coarse stones. I hope that's a good sign!
I'll report back after I've done some cutting with the new edge.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:49 pm
by A.S.O.K.A
awa54 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:19 pm
The Endura has a new edge with enough stock removed to be well past the damaged areas... Now some pocket time and reasonable use ought to tell if this is a bad HT through and through, or just a surface irregularity.
An interesting note: there was less tendency to form a wire edge this time around, even with lots of working the edge with very coarse stones. I hope that's a good sign!
I'll report back after I've done some cutting with the new edge.
I'm going to reprofile the edge on my vtoku2 dragonfly and see if the reports of low performance could be linked to heat treat issues or an irregularity
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:19 pm
by awa54
UPDATE:
a third sharpening finally went deep enough in the core steel to eliminate the brittle edge issues my Endura was having, some yard work today including cutting a few small limbs on hardwoods (one fully seasoned), followed by breaking down several cardboard boxes left no damage whatsoever and no noticeable falloff in sharpness. I also did a bunch of scooping cuts on the seasoned hardwood branch, intentionally side-loading the edge to force the issue and V-Toku2 came through this time with no damage! I think that S30V or even VG-10 would have had a good chance of a slight roll or chip from those cuts, I've even chipped a Mora laminate sloyd making similar cuts in dense seasoned hardwood.
This behavior is exactly what I would have expected from a craft made Japanese woodworking tool or kitchen knife, but having to remove so much stock to get to the correctly HT'd steel on a modern high-tech knife like the Endura was a surprise.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:06 pm
by awa54
ANOTHER UPDATE:
that third time is the charm thing, isn't always true... more chips, but this time very small ones and they came from hacking on seasoned hardwood, not just low level EDC tasks. Another sharpening was administered (retaining the 15DPS without micro-bevel geometry) and repeating the same tasks did *not* leave any chips this time.
I'm still a bit flummoxed by the fact that I seem to be the only person in Spyderville who got an Endura with a brittle edge, you would think that if there was one, there must be more, but maybe other people's definitions of "tough" and "hard use" are a bit tamer than mine?
Either way, it seems like V-Toku2 might not become an all time favorite of mine, so long as Blue Super and CruWear still exist.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:18 pm
by knivesandbooks
awa54 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:06 pm
ANOTHER UPDATE:
that third time is the charm thing, isn't always true... more chips, but this time very small ones and they came from hacking on seasoned hardwood, not just low level EDC tasks. Another sharpening was administered (retaining the 15DPS without micro-bevel geometry) and repeating the same tasks did *not* leave any chips this time.
I'm still a bit flummoxed by the fact that I seem to be the only person in Spyderville who got an Endura with a brittle edge, you would think that if there was one, there must be more, but maybe other people's definitions of "tough" and "hard use" are a bit tamer than mine?
Either way, it seems like V-Toku2 might not become an all time favorite of mine, so long as Blue Super and CruWear still exist.
Maybe not that many people have done anything with theirs.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:52 am
by TkoK83Spy
I'd have to agree David. Cutting apples and opening mail isn't really a way to test a steel compared to how you are using yours! If I had something other than a Dragonfly in this steel, I'd try to test it out more to give you some feedback...but, the lil Dragonfly isn't built for it. I enjoy your updates on the steel though.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:08 am
by Enactive
I have been using my V-Toku 2 Stretch as a work knife for carpentry and construction plus miscellaneous tasks for a few months. Just used it yesterday to carve back bevels on trim I was installing.
I've had great results with the steel so far, but admittedly not subjecting it to warehouse duty nor carving hardwood and twisting. I do use dedicated knives for most carving, but haven't babied the Stretch.
I think it is great stuff, but it is a basic low alloy carbon steel. I like it largely for the keen edge it takes easily and the awesome sharpening response although it hasn't needed much work. (Edited to add: I have reduced the bevel angle and sharpened on Japanese waterstones, touched up on the Sharpmaker and have stropped with compound on leather.)
If it is in fact tough at relatively high hardness, as reported, then cool. Sounds like in your case, David, it hasn't been. I haven't yet used it hard enough to compare to yours. Will update accordingly if I have news.
Off topic note: My bigger complaint on the Stretch is the minor vertical blade play when locked. It's my only Seki Spydie and puts me off them a bit.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
by gibs0n
I just ordered a Meerkat—can’t wait for it get here and to try the steel.
Quick questions for the steel and sharpening experts:
My skill level is medium, and the only thing I use is a sharpmaker. Though I do have a brown medium stone as well.
Reprofiling really isn’t “in the cards” for me. So:
1) what’s the best angle from the sharpmaker for this? I presume the 40°
2) will a get a longer working edge with the brown or the white stones?
3) it seems strawberries brings on a nice paying. I cut strawberries frequently for my daughter. Will just causal use bring out the patina? Or should it soak? And should I wipe it down after cuts if I want a patina?
Thanks!
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:29 am
by awa54
You could probably set the primary bevel at 30 deg. with the brown rods, since the Meerkat (or mine at least) has a pretty acute grind already and probably won't require too much stock removal. plus, V-Toku2 grinds easily compared to most of the higher end stainless alloys. It might take a while, but it'll be worth it, the Meerkat has a slicy little blade and really deserves a 15 dps or lower edge.
From what I've experienced, I'd go for a white rod finish with V-Toku2
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:00 pm
by gibs0n
awa54 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:29 am
You could probably set the primary bevel at 30 deg. with the brown rods, since the Meerkat (or mine at least) has a pretty acute grind already and probably won't require too much stock removal. plus, V-Toku2 grinds easily compared to most of the higher end stainless alloys. It might take a while, but it'll be worth it, the Meerkat has a slicy little blade and really deserves a 15 dps or lower edge.
From what I've experienced, I'd go for a white rod finish with V-Toku2
Thanks!
I might have to find someone who can do it—I don’t trust my skills enough to make this my first effort.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:42 pm
by awa54
Enactive wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:08 am
I have been using my V-Toku 2 Stretch as a work knife for carpentry and construction plus miscellaneous tasks for a few months. Just used it yesterday to carve back bevels on trim I was installing.
I've had great results with the steel so far, but admittedly not subjecting it to warehouse duty nor carving hardwood and twisting. I do use dedicated knives for most carving, but haven't babied the Stretch.
I think it is great stuff, but it is a basic low alloy carbon steel. I like it largely for the keen edge it takes easily and the awesome sharpening response although it hasn't needed much work. (Edited to add: I have reduced the bevel angle and sharpened on Japanese waterstones, touched up on the Sharpmaker and have stropped with compound on leather.)
If it is in fact tough at relatively high hardness, as reported, then cool. Sounds like in your case, David, it hasn't been. I haven't yet used it hard enough to compare to yours. Will update accordingly if I have news.
Off topic note: My bigger complaint on the Stretch is the minor vertical blade play when locked. It's my only Seki Spydie and puts me off them a bit.
my SB Stretch also has a hint of "lock rock", but it's minor enough that it really doesn't worry me in use. All my other Sakai made lockbacks have less play in this dimension, but with most there is a hint lurking there if you really look for it. Just because the newer Golden made lock is better doesn't mean that the Japanese knives don't have *very good* locks...
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:22 am
by gibs0n
awa54 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:29 am
You could probably set the primary bevel at 30 deg. with the brown rods, since the Meerkat (or mine at least) has a pretty acute grind already and probably won't require too much stock removal. plus, V-Toku2 grinds easily compared to most of the higher end stainless alloys. It might take a while, but it'll be worth it, the Meerkat has a slicy little blade and really deserves a 15 dps or lower edge.
From what I've experienced, I'd go for a white rod finish with V-Toku2
Would the sharpmaker Diamond rods be worth the investment? Meaning: would they make reprofiling the VTOKU2 easier?
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:33 am
by TkoK83Spy
Absolutely. I used the CBN rods a couple weeks ago to take my M390 Para 3 down from 20dps to 15dps. Took quite a while, but was well worth it and a nice experience to get to know the steel a bit better. Vtoku2 should be easier than M390. I say go for it, if you don't have a guided system that's your best bet...unless you're a free hand whiz and can use bench stones.
Re: V-TOKU 2 Love
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:16 am
by Enactive
awa54 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:42 pm
Enactive wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:08 am
I have been using my V-Toku 2 Stretch as a work knife for carpentry and construction plus miscellaneous tasks for a few months. Just used it yesterday to carve back bevels on trim I was installing.
I've had great results with the steel so far, but admittedly not subjecting it to warehouse duty nor carving hardwood and twisting. I do use dedicated knives for most carving, but haven't babied the Stretch.
I think it is great stuff, but it is a basic low alloy carbon steel. I like it largely for the keen edge it takes easily and the awesome sharpening response although it hasn't needed much work. (Edited to add: I have reduced the bevel angle and sharpened on Japanese waterstones, touched up on the Sharpmaker and have stropped with compound on leather.)
If it is in fact tough at relatively high hardness, as reported, then cool. Sounds like in your case, David, it hasn't been. I haven't yet used it hard enough to compare to yours. Will update accordingly if I have news.
Off topic note: My bigger complaint on the Stretch is the minor vertical blade play when locked. It's my only Seki Spydie and puts me off them a bit.
my SB Stretch also has a hint of "lock rock", but it's minor enough that it really doesn't worry me in use. All my other Sakai made lockbacks have less play in this dimension, but with most there is a hint lurking there if you really look for it. Just because the newer Golden made lock is better doesn't mean that the Japanese knives don't have *very good* locks...
David, thanks for your response to my off topic comment. I know these are very well made knives with very good locks. To me the lockrock is an aesthetic/ haptic issue that I just don't like. I really like lockbacks and i think the Golden lockbacks have spoiled me with their smoothe and solid operation.