Where's the 3V?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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steelcity16
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#121

Post by steelcity16 »

Barmoley wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:58 am
I absolutely agree with you that 3v will sell, but mostly because of lack of knowledge that better alternatives for the specific application exist. I guess I misunderstood the point of your thread. I am surprised you want it, since you clearly know better, but to each his own.

I want to add some 3V folders to my arsenal because I own many different knives and use them for many different things. Knives are tools to me. I own probably 50+ different #2 Phllips screwdrivers and I grab different ones for different tasks. I grab a PB Swiss one when I want the most precise fit possible on screw that is going to be difficult to turn. I grab one with a striking cap when I need to hammer on a screw to break up the corrosion. I have a Vessel Impacta that gets used when I need to hammer on really hard to remove screw like a rotor screw that would otherwise strip. I have JIS screwdrivers for working on the JIS screws on Japanese cars that 99.99% of the screwdriver using public probably confuses with a standard phillips screw. I grab my Harbor Freight freebies when I want to beat on or pry on something aside from a screw.

The point is that we don't have to choose a single knife. If I had a Native in 4V, Cruwear, and 3V I would grab each of them depending on the task at hand. The 3V would get grabbed for the most abusive tasks where edge damage is a real concern. Stuff like what is illustrated in bluntcut's photo. You can literally see that 3V is the better alternative to 4V in that specific application. So I don't agree that there is "lack of knowledge that better alternatives for the specific application exist". I believe that most of the naysayers can't picture themselves using a $150+ rare and exclusive folding knife for some of the things that others use them for on a regular basis. There are applications for knives between the extremes of batoning and the mundane things like cutting cardboard and rope that would be great for a 3V folder.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#122

Post by bluntcut »

bluntcut wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:13 am
* fwiw - my ht is unconventional, so as my opinions - I guess

...

If you want best corrosion and s30v edge retention and plenty tough for folder and small fixed blade, push for 61rc vanax. Crazy tool steel folder, push for 67+rc cpm t-15. 61-62rc 3V & V4E/4V folder would sell well but knife afi might feel something is lacking ;)
My analysis what happened to V4E edge and role of steel elasticity and plasticity in edge durability, especially involve high edge lateral deflection. e.g chops and deep cuts in hard materials.

https://youtu.be/PDMzHeheVZ8

So for normal edc usage, V4E/4V offers more wear but less corrosion resistant than 3V. Bending a 4" 3mm thick folder blade would dislodge the pivot way before blade snap for most 60+rc steels. aebl steel category would make more sense than 3V for edc. Well, for lower impacts usage go stainless with higher with carbide volume S3xV ... S1xxV, 20cv/m390/204p.

A small excerpt from my email - info might be useful in context of wear resistance

SiO2 is the primary abrasive wearing/abrading down your edge, thus stronger/harder matrix resist better. Avg silicate/sand hardness is about 64hrc, so yes 63 is better than 62  64 even better, 65+rc best. Higher hrc also translate to (less than linear) later strength, it would help resist lateral edge damage, where I found – edge dulling is mostly from lateral flex in conjunction with abrasion, instead of normal view where wearing is compressive while mostly failed to account major lateral flex factor. Carbides(hard particles) keyed contribution to edge retention, where they protect/shield the matrix from external hard particles/abrasives. Push cutting minimize carbide shield coverage, so edge retention is way lower than slice/draw cuts. Envision biting on vs grinding on a mouthful of sand -> the biting down/push cut will destroy your gum really fast, bye bye teeth.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#123

Post by Barmoley »

steelcity16 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:35 am
Barmoley wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:58 am
I absolutely agree with you that 3v will sell, but mostly because of lack of knowledge that better alternatives for the specific application exist. I guess I misunderstood the point of your thread. I am surprised you want it, since you clearly know better, but to each his own.

I want to add some 3V folders to my arsenal because I own many different knives and use them for many different things. Knives are tools to me. I own probably 50+ different #2 Phllips screwdrivers and I grab different ones for different tasks. I grab a PB Swiss one when I want the most precise fit possible on screw that is going to be difficult to turn. I grab one with a striking cap when I need to hammer on a screw to break up the corrosion. I have a Vessel Impacta that gets used when I need to hammer on really hard to remove screw like a rotor screw that would otherwise strip. I have JIS screwdrivers for working on the JIS screws on Japanese cars that 99.99% of the screwdriver using public probably confuses with a standard phillips screw. I grab my Harbor Freight freebies when I want to beat on or pry on something aside from a screw.

The point is that we don't have to choose a single knife. If I had a Native in 4V, Cruwear, and 3V I would grab each of them depending on the task at hand. The 3V would get grabbed for the most abusive tasks where edge damage is a real concern. Stuff like what is illustrated in bluntcut's photo. You can literally see that 3V is the better alternative to 4V in that specific application. So I don't agree that there is "lack of knowledge that better alternatives for the specific application exist". I believe that most of the naysayers can't picture themselves using a $150+ rare and exclusive folding knife for some of the things that others use them for on a regular basis. There are applications for knives between the extremes of batoning and the mundane things like cutting cardboard and rope that would be great for a 3V folder.
Like I said I misunderstood what you were after, you want 3V and that's fine, no argument there. bluntcut's photo, as cool as it is, is irrelevant for many reasons, but mainly because his heat treat is not what Spyderco does. Without knowing all the other variables and not being able to repeat his tests it is hard to know what else is going on. The following statement is very surprising to me as in general harder steel should deform less, until it breaks, but hardness is just a number and you can achieve it different ways. Larrin's articles clearly showed that the same steel at the same hardness can have drastically different toughness for example. Here we are dealing with different steels with different hardness, so who knows what is going on. It is also possible that the 2 blades were not tested in exactly the same way, different angle, different force, etc. Bottom line I don't know, but again has nothing to do with what Spyderco does.
bluntcut wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:13 am
Let's entertain a whatif. Change edge geometry to 12 dps and 0.005" behind edge thickness. 3V would roll but less than V4E.
Surprising but not necessarily incorrect, but again, this is a whole other discussion.
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steelcity16
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#124

Post by steelcity16 »

Saw this is Kevin Smock's website. He said this in relation to his SK23 folder, which was the basis for the highly sought after Smock collaboration with Spyderco. I doubt anyone here would question that Kevin doesn't know what he is talking about when the first steel he mentioned wanting to use in his folder is 3V. He did make a few in 3V from what I can see and they sell for $750-800. Great to see other knife makers embracing this steel in folders. Hoping Spyderco will see the same potential and bring 3V to some of their great and affordable Golden made designs.

"The SK23 is the first folder design. It's meant to be a great EDC knife. Easy one handed open and close via the button lock release. Wharncliffe blade shape with rounded spine. Each one will come with a nylon pouch and card of Authenticity. I hope to have blade steel options of 3V, damasteel, AEB-L, and S30V. Damasteel will cost more. They have titanium handles and button release compression lock. Specs will vary as there really isn't a good constant supply of the same thickness material for each kind of blade steel. Weight starts at 5oz before I do any kind of milling, Blade length 3", Handle length 4.125", handle thickness .53", and Blade thickness .18" but will vary. Compression Lock Licensed by Spyderco."
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#125

Post by Baron Mind »

Really surprised by the arguments against 3v here. You don't hear these arguments used against any other steel. "You don't need x because y is better for folders." I understand if this was a poll and we could only choose one, but it's not. And maybe if there was something that was a strict upgrade to 3v, but there's not. You can't tell me there's not a folder design where 3v wouldn't shine. 3v IS tougher than cruwear and 4v, and probably easier to sharpen. If people want that for their folder, so be it. I would definitely like to try it out.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#126

Post by Tucson Tom »

Wow! I wore myself out reading this entire thread. There is some great stuff in here. My take is that I want more Cruwear. What does a poor person do who wants to pick up a Spyderco with CPM Cruwear right now? I guess the only option is Ebay or the forum knife sales and getting lucky. It is too bad it isn't generally available. I am glad I've got my PM2 in Cruwear, and I carried it today in honor of this thread.

I am left not itching for 3V in a folder. Without rehashing all that has been said, I would rather see 4V used (or Cruwear!). But in the spirit of choice and freedom, what the heck, make a folder with 3V and I won't stand in your way. No doubt it will make a good knife.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#127

Post by Woodpuppy »

I’m definately enjoying my para3 in CRUWEAR. I would like a ~5” fixed blade in cruwear to try. I’d probably love 3V as well.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#128

Post by Bile Bob »

Baron Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:08 pm
Really surprised by the arguments against 3v here. You don't hear these arguments used against any other steel. "You don't need x because y is better for folders." I understand if this was a poll and we could only choose one, but it's not. And maybe if there was something that was a strict upgrade to 3v, but there's not. You can't tell me there's not a folder design where 3v wouldn't shine. 3v IS tougher than cruwear and 4v, and probably easier to sharpen. If people want that for their folder, so be it. I would definitely like to try it out.
3V has already been done. Its called Cruwear. Even made by the same company. CPM or Crucible Particle Metallurgy.

"3v IS tougher than cruwear"
Do you have any evidence of that? In what way?
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#129

Post by The Meat man »

Bile Bob wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:11 am
Baron Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:08 pm
Really surprised by the arguments against 3v here. You don't hear these arguments used against any other steel. "You don't need x because y is better for folders." I understand if this was a poll and we could only choose one, but it's not. And maybe if there was something that was a strict upgrade to 3v, but there's not. You can't tell me there's not a folder design where 3v wouldn't shine. 3v IS tougher than cruwear and 4v, and probably easier to sharpen. If people want that for their folder, so be it. I would definitely like to try it out.
3V has already been done. Its called Cruwear. Even made by the same company. CPM or Crucible Particle Metallurgy.

"3v IS tougher than cruwear"
Do you have any evidence of that? In what way?


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Re: Where's the 3V?

#130

Post by David R »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:38 pm
Wow! I wore myself out reading this entire thread. There is some great stuff in here. My take is that I want more Cruwear. What does a poor person do who wants to pick up a Spyderco with CPM Cruwear right now? I guess the only option is Ebay or the forum knife sales and getting lucky. It is too bad it isn't generally available. I am glad I've got my PM2 in Cruwear, and I carried it today in honor of this thread.

I am left not itching for 3V in a folder. Without rehashing all that has been said, I would rather see 4V used (or Cruwear!). But in the spirit of choice and freedom, what the heck, make a folder with 3V and I won't stand in your way. No doubt it will make a good knife.
What does a person do? You find the few remaining in stock and pay a lot of money for them. Or wait for used ones to come up for sale. After reading this I've replaced my Chaparral with my Cru-Wear Para 3. :)
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#131

Post by Barmoley »

Baron Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:08 pm
Really surprised by the arguments against 3v here. You don't hear these arguments used against any other steel. "You don't need x because y is better for folders." I understand if this was a poll and we could only choose one, but it's not. And maybe if there was something that was a strict upgrade to 3v, but there's not. You can't tell me there's not a folder design where 3v wouldn't shine. 3v IS tougher than cruwear and 4v, and probably easier to sharpen. If people want that for their folder, so be it. I would definitely like to try it out.
You could probably make a similar argument about any steel, you just have to limit the scope, for a particular application some steels are better than others. Yes you can have multiple choices, but does that mean that we can't critically discuss them? There is a straight upgrade to 3V in a small folder it is called cruwear and possibly 4v if we take corrosion resistance and maybe effort to sharpen out of the question. There are folder designs where 3v will shine less then the alternatives, that is sort of the point of this discussion. 3V being tougher in absolute terms is irrelevant as long as alternatives are tough enough where additional toughness is of no additional benefit. Same can be said about wear and corrosion resistance, so you can flip the argument the other way around and say that cruwear is not needed because 3v has more than enough wear resistance. 3v is tougher at lower hardness, but there are many reports where at high hardness it is not tougher and other steels can get harder easier, so if we compare hard cruwear or 4v vs hard 3v the situation might be different. Cutting competition guys prefer 4v, v4e and m4 for example and they abuse their much larger blades to no end. Once again, it seems that this point is being lost on some....no one is saying 3v is a bad steel or bad steel for a folder, some of us are saying there are better alternatives that is all. Steels don't get their feelings hurt it is ok to say that one is better for a particular application than another.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#132

Post by Tucson Tom »

Barmoley wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:20 pm
Baron Mind wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:08 pm
Really surprised by the arguments against 3v here. You don't hear these arguments used against any other steel. "You don't need x because y is better for folders." I understand if this was a poll and we could only choose one, but it's not. And maybe if there was something that was a strict upgrade to 3v, but there's not. You can't tell me there's not a folder design where 3v wouldn't shine. 3v IS tougher than cruwear and 4v, and probably easier to sharpen. If people want that for their folder, so be it. I would definitely like to try it out.
You could probably make a similar argument about any steel, you just have to limit the scope, for a particular application some steels are better than others. Yes you can have multiple choices, but does that mean that we can't critically discuss them? There is a straight upgrade to 3V in a small folder it is called cruwear and possibly 4v if we take corrosion resistance and maybe effort to sharpen out of the question. There are folder designs where 3v will shine less then the alternatives, that is sort of the point of this discussion. 3V being tougher in absolute terms is irrelevant as long as alternatives are tough enough where additional toughness is of no additional benefit. Same can be said about wear and corrosion resistance, so you can flip the argument the other way around and say that cruwear is not needed because 3v has more than enough wear resistance. 3v is tougher at lower hardness, but there are many reports where at high hardness it is not tougher and other steels can get harder easier, so if we compare hard cruwear or 4v vs hard 3v the situation might be different. Cutting competition guys prefer 4v, v4e and m4 for example and they abuse their much larger blades to no end. Once again, it seems that this point is being lost on some....no one is saying 3v is a bad steel or bad steel for a folder, some of us are saying there are better alternatives that is all. Steels don't get their feelings hurt it is ok to say that one is better for a particular application than another.
A person could make the same arguments for 154CM that have been offered for 3V. And the same answers would come along. Yes, 154CM can make a good folder (I know, I have some), but there are simply better alternatives, so why do it? You could play the same game and talk about any number of other steels in the same way. So, of course you hear those arguments used against other steels, or you would if they were proposed. 3V has its place in the world, but there are so many better alternatives for a folder, why not go straight to those. That is what I have learned here.

More Cruwear -- that boils down the whole thing. (The compositions of Cruwear and 3V do look awfully similar, but that is only part of the story, or so it would seem).

I guess there is another take-away here. Maybe I should save up for one of these Bark River fixed blades in 3V that have been talked about! That leads to another question I should launch a new thread to ask. Why do Spyderco fixed blades cost on the order of twice what a Spyderco folder does? I would expect a fixed blade to be less expensive not more expensive. The Bark River 3V fixed blades are on the order of $200, which is not chump change, but your typical Spyderco fixed blade is a $400 item.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#133

Post by TomAiello »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:36 pm
A person could make the same arguments for 154CM that have been offered for 3V. And the same answers would come along. Yes, 154CM can make a good folder (I know, I have some), but there are simply better alternatives, so why do it? You could play the same game and talk about any number of other steels in the same way. So, of course you hear those arguments used against other steels, or you would if they were proposed. 3V has its place in the world, but there are so many better alternatives for a folder, why not go straight to those. That is what I have learned here.
I'm starting to think that CPM 154 is vastly underrated. I've been using it in two knives (a Leek and a Mule) and I really think it's pretty impressive. It has a really good balance of characteristics.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#134

Post by Tucson Tom »

TomAiello wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:02 pm
Tucson Tom wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:36 pm
A person could make the same arguments for 154CM that have been offered for 3V. And the same answers would come along. Yes, 154CM can make a good folder (I know, I have some), but there are simply better alternatives, so why do it? You could play the same game and talk about any number of other steels in the same way. So, of course you hear those arguments used against other steels, or you would if they were proposed. 3V has its place in the world, but there are so many better alternatives for a folder, why not go straight to those. That is what I have learned here.
I'm starting to think that CPM 154 is vastly underrated. I've been using it in two knives (a Leek and a Mule) and I really think it's pretty impressive. It has a really good balance of characteristics.
Funny you say that, because I am fond of it as well. I am aware that there are dozens of snazzier steels these days, but 154CM is really pretty good stuff.

I brought it up as a sort of straw man argument for what is being said about 3V obviously, but I would be happy to see it used still. These days its place seems to be big fixed blades, and I'm OK with that.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#135

Post by Pelagic »

What's the general price difference of 3v vs 4v?
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#136

Post by emanuel »

4v is about 2% more expensive than 3v if buying from the same source. So you could say they're pretty much the same.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#137

Post by steelcity16 »

Bumping for a 3V folder! A DLC 3V-carta Shaman needs to happen! A Manix XL would be sweet as well.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#138

Post by Abyss_Fish »

so glad someone bumped this. 3V is my favorite steel next to lc200n. It's an absolute joy to use and maintain. I'd love some sprints in coated 3V. I'll go against the grain and say some mid sized knives in it would work well. Especially models with finer tips like the chaparral, sage 5, para's, etc. On the other end more robust pieces like the Police, manix, shaman, etc, would most definitely sell well. But a G10 and coated 3v Sage 5 or chaparral would be wonderful, for me.
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Current favorite steels: sg2/R2, lc200n/Z-FiNit, 3v
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#139

Post by steelcity16 »

Abyss_Fish wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:17 pm
so glad someone bumped this. 3V is my favorite steel next to lc200n. It's an absolute joy to use and maintain. I'd love some sprints in coated 3V. I'll go against the grain and say some mid sized knives in it would work well. Especially models with finer tips like the chaparral, sage 5, para's, etc. On the other end more robust pieces like the Police, manix, shaman, etc, would most definitely sell well. But a G10 and coated 3v Sage 5 or chaparral would be wonderful, for me.

Absolutely. I'd like to try it in a range of different sized blades. An Endura would be my number 1 choice, but I figured a Shaman has the best chance of happening. A Military would be sweeeeet as well.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

#140

Post by blues »

Another fan of 3V. I only have one, a small utility fixed blade made by Ed Schott for me years ago...but it's my most used knife around the house. Easy to sharpen, tough and not a hint of oxidation.

If Spyderco puts 3V in a pattern I like, it's something I'd look forward to.
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