Where's the 3V?

[vvs]

> 3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

Easy: corrosion resistance.

I have both steels in folders: GB1 and Boker Solo hollow ground CPM 3V (looks like thumbstud version of Lum chinese folder hollow ground instead of FFG). And corrosion resistance of Boker 3V is awesome: slight discoloration after tomatoes where GB1 takes nice brick-colored film over FeCl chem-wash.

[steelcity16]

Just yesterday my son in law was asking me to recommend to him a tough knife, because at his work he does some cutting in situations where it's very easy for the edge to come in contact with steel after a successful cut. I began talking to him about various blade steels like 3v, 4v, cruwear, and m4. He said he could carry a fixed blade at work but preferred to have a folder. He asked why there weren't more folders in 3v and I didn't have an answer that made sense for him. It seems like people passionately oppose the idea of apex stability in a folding knife. I'm just not sipping that type of koolaid. I use knives in imperfect situations and truly appreciate a forgiving edge. I do not chop, pry, baton, or "beat on" any folding knives. I recently broke the very tip off my cruwear pm2. I'd try 3v in a heartbeat.

This all the way! I couldn't have said it better! :)

[steelcity16]

Spyderco did make a folder in 3V, the TUFF.

True, but the TUFF is a design that doesn't really appeal to the masses (or me for that matter). If they can make a Native, Military, Manix, PM2, and Para 3 in Cruwear, then why can't they make it in 3V? The steels are similar are they not? Who cares if the difference between 3V, Cruwear, and M4 is negligible or irrelevant in a folder? Most everyone says the difference between S110V and S90V is basically impossible for almost anyone to distinguish in use, but they sure churn out both of those steels by the boatload and one hasn't yet made the other obsolete. I also see a lot of people talk about optimizing blade shape/geometry/grind etc to the steel and that these folders are not suitable for 3V. I just find it hard to believe that a PM2 can be a great shape for Cruwear, M4, and 20 or 30 or however many other steels have been used in the PM2, but 3V is always "not right" for that format.

It is a new steel (for Spyderco...aside from the TUFF) that MANY people want to see put into the Golden folders, and I would bet quite a bit of coin that Sprints of these would sell out faster than the new REX45 sprints are going to, so why not make something that customers want and is pretty much guaranteed to sell? :confused:

[Pelagic]

I just find it hard to believe that a PM2 can be a great shape for Cruwear, M4, and 20 or 30 or however many other steels have been used in the PM2, but 3V is always "not right" for that format.

Lol, you've successfully pinpointed where the logic ends and the kool-aid begins.

[Xplorer]

Xplorer, if you think 3v has "low wear resistance", do you also feel s30v has low wear resistance? And if not, why do so many cut tests put these 2 steels near equal to each other in cutting performance? Is s30v a bad choice for folders also?

Stating "low wear resistance" was in respect other steels that offer a similar high degree of toughness. In general wear resistance of both 3V and S30V is decent. When compared to 4V, M4, V4E or CPM Cruwear, 3V wear resistance is low. This is one reason why those steels are often a better choice. Balance of properties is again the reason S30V makes a good choice for most folders.

In what cases does a steel's toughness capacity "well exceed the design limitations of the knife itself"? And do you think those models are the ones people would like to see 3v in? (I don't think anyone is proposing a 3v delica....)

Actually the Delica was suggested in this thread. I'm not sure you understood what I was saying here. I wasn't referring to any specific knife. I was referring to the decision making process in designing a knife. If a blade design is too thin and/or the pivot junction is not strong enough to be subjected to prying, spine whacking or similar hard uses there is no benefit in using a steel that has an excess capacity for such uses. The better choice is going to be a steel with a balance of properties that is better suited to the intended use.

I knew someone would chime in and say "but design/blade geometry matters more than steel", but this is completely irrelevant to the desire for some 3v or any other steel. Deadboxhero could post saying how much he wants maxamet to stay in Spyderco's lineup, and Cliff Stamp could interject with "ya know, by reducing the angle of microbevel by 2.5 degrees per side, k390 performs the same as maxamet" and that is also irrelevant and does not mean Shawn's request lacks importance (sorry to use real people in a hypothetical example).

I'm not saying any person is wrong for wanting a 3V folder. If someone desires a 3V folder for the novelty of it or just because they want what they want, so be it. I'm saying the reason you don't see more 3V folders is because from a design and engineering perspective there are a lot of steels with a better balance of properties for the intended uses of most folding knives.

And, I'd really like to know why cruwear is so heavily praised as a great blade steel in folders, but if you give cruwear....

A HINT more toughness
A HINT less edge retention, and
A HINT less corrosion resistance

I've been saying 3V doesn't generally make sense for a folder because there are better options. All things are relative. With Cruwear we're already talking about a steel that is extremely tough and exhibits tremendous edge stability suitable for a high end, hard-use fixed blade. If a designer is choosing between 3V and Cruwear for a folder Cruwear exhibits better edge retention and better corrosion resistance than 3V and that balance of properties is why it is usually regarded as a better choice. Could you use 3V in a folder? Of course. The reason it's so rare is because of the reasons I've been trying to explain.

.... all of a sudden you have a steel that doesn't belong anywhere near a folder? Lol really?

.... I'm just not sipping that type of koolaid.

It would be nice if we could have this discussion without being disrespectful. I spend every day in my shop working on knife design, heat treating, grinding, and considering and testing these very issues we are discussing. I share my views with you because I have put a great deal of time, effort, money and focus into these issues and I have an opinion that has evolved based on facts and actual testing. I'm sorry if what I'm saying isn't what you wanted to hear, but I'm not definitely trying to offend you.

Best regards,
Chad

[Pelagic]

Xplorer, if you think 3v has "low wear resistance", do you also feel s30v has low wear resistance? And if not, why do so many cut tests put these 2 steels near equal to each other in cutting performance? Is s30v a bad choice for folders also?

Stating "low wear resistance" was in respect other steels that offer a similar high degree of toughness. In general wear resistance of both 3V and S30V is decent. When compared to 4V, M4, V4E or CPM Cruwear, 3V wear resistance is low. This is one reason why those steels are often a better choice. Balance of properties is again the reason S30V makes a good choice for most folders.

In what cases does a steel's toughness capacity "well exceed the design limitations of the knife itself"? And do you think those models are the ones people would like to see 3v in? (I don't think anyone is proposing a 3v delica....)

Actually the Delica was suggested in this thread. I'm not sure you understood what I was saying here. I wasn't referring to any specific knife. I was referring to the decision making process in designing a knife. If a blade design is too thin and/or the pivot junction is not strong enough to be subjected to prying, spine whacking or similar hard uses there is no benefit in using a steel that has an excess capacity for such uses. The better choice is going to be a steel with a balance of properties that is better suited to the intended use.

I knew someone would chime in and say "but design/blade geometry matters more than steel", but this is completely irrelevant to the desire for some 3v or any other steel. Deadboxhero could post saying how much he wants maxamet to stay in Spyderco's lineup, and Cliff Stamp could interject with "ya know, by reducing the angle of microbevel by 2.5 degrees per side, k390 performs the same as maxamet" and that is also irrelevant and does not mean Shawn's request lacks importance (sorry to use real people in a hypothetical example).

I'm not saying any person is wrong for wanting a 3V folder. If someone desires a 3V folder for the novelty of it or just because they want what they want, so be it. I'm saying the reason you don't see more 3V folders is because from a design and engineering perspective there are a lot of steels with a better balance of properties for the intended uses of most folding knives.

And, I'd really like to know why cruwear is so heavily praised as a great blade steel in folders, but if you give cruwear....

A HINT more toughness
A HINT less edge retention, and
A HINT less corrosion resistance

I've been saying 3V doesn't generally make sense for a folder because there are better options. All things are relative. With Cruwear we're already talking about a steel that is extremely tough and exhibits tremendous edge stability suitable for a high end, hard-use fixed blade. If a designer is choosing between 3V and Cruwear for a folder Cruwear exhibits better edge retention and better corrosion resistance than 3V and that balance of properties is why it is usually regarded as a better choice. Could you use 3V in a folder? Of course. The reason it's so rare is because of the reasons I've been trying to explain.

.... all of a sudden you have a steel that doesn't belong anywhere near a folder? Lol really?

.... I'm just not sipping that type of koolaid.

It would be nice if we could have this discussion without being disrespectful. I spend every day in my shop working on knife design, heat treating, grinding, and considering and testing these very issues we are discussing. I share my views with you because I have put a great deal of time, effort, money and focus into these issues and I have an opinion that has evolved based on facts and actual testing. I'm sorry if what I'm saying isn't what you wanted to hear, but I'm not definitely trying to offend you.

Best regards,
Chad

I am not being disrespectful. It would be nice if you could show enough maturity not to stoop to baseless accusations. I am asking questions that require people to back up their mentality that:

1. Cruwear is great for a folder and 3v/4v aren't (very arbitrary to draw the line there).
2. Toughness isn't really necessary in a folder (don't we all have different uses for knives??).

Admittedly, these may be difficult to answer, but try not to get upset please. I'm honestly just curious. I say the word "kool-aid" because this seems to be a general school of thought in the knife community that does a fairly good job of abandoning logic IMO.

I still don't see how s30v is well balanced and 3v isn't, if you're admitting their wear resistance is very close. This seems like you just personally prefer corrosion resistance over toughness; both of which depend on one's location and uses of knives.

My mistake for missing someone recommending a delica. But in all honesty that wasn't a good example for me to bring up. But I don't see how using 3v automatically makes you think someone wants to engage in prying and spine wacking. This makes absolutely no sense to me....?

By saying 3v would be a novelty or just someone "wanting what they want" (as if they're some child needing a toy) it makes it seem like you haven't used it that much. But I'm willing to bet you have, and have just slipped into common school of thought and haven't actually considered what 3v in a folder would be like. That, or you only use your knives in very safe, sheltered environments and personally have no use for 3v.

Most importantly, where does this extreme passion against 3v in a folder come from? I actually outlined this stance in my first post in this thread, essentially knowing asking for 3v in a folder would upset some people. I just don't get how this could get people so antagonistic. Steel threads are such train wrecks that someone can't even describe what their own personal preferences are without upsetting others. It's pretty sad really.

[Pelagic]

As another example, I'd like to know the practicality behind 52100 in a folder. If 3v doesn't belong in a folder, why does 52100?

I personally never saw the point of 52100 in a folding knife, but I thought it was cool that it was offered and never criticized those who enjoyed it.

[wrdwrght]

I'd take a 3V Shaman sprint in an instant. Why? Because, among the more wear-resistant steels, it is reputedly the most fracture-resistant. I'd like to see what this toughness gives me in a high-saber grind. I'm pretty sure it will be a knife no less tough than the Tuff, but without all the dimples. :p

EDIT TO ADD: Or, on further review, I'd take a 4V (or roughly equivalent but hard-to-obtain Vanadis 4E) Shaman sprint.

[Xplorer]

I am not being disrespectful.

Fine. I found your "LOL Really" and "Koolaide" comments unnecessary and disrespectful.

I've explained myself quite clearly but you seem to only want to hear from people that agree with you. Saying that I have some "extreme passion" against 3V in a folder is just absurd and over the top for no good reason. Antagonistic and sad? Please. :rolleyes: I hope you find the 3V folder of your dreams. I'm done with this waste of time.

[TomAiello]

As another example, I'd like to know the practicality behind 52100 in a folder. If 3v doesn't belong in a folder, why does 52100?

I personally never saw the point of 52100 in a folding knife, but I thought it was cool that it was offered and never criticized those who enjoyed it.

I have one because it was my chance to really test out 52100 in a platform I'd really carry on a daily basis. I'd buy a 3V manix for the same reason. :)


"It doesn't belong in a folder" is a silly argument, easily countered by "well, I'm the fool who wants a folder with it." :)

[dsvirsky]

^THAT!^
My collection includes folders in both 3V and 52100. :D

[Ankerson]

Having owned 2 folders in 3V, Strider SmF and Spyderco TUFF I didn't see the point of it personally as the same model Strider (SmF) in S30V could do exactly the same things as the 3V blade could do when tested side by side.

Covered a lot of hard use (non folder type uses) with both blades.

[Pelagic]

I am not being disrespectful.

Fine. I found your "LOL Really" and "Koolaide" comments unnecessary and disrespectful.

I've explained myself quite clearly but you seem to only want to hear from people that agree with you. Saying that I have some "extreme passion" against 3V in a folder is just absurd and over the top for no good reason. Antagonistic and sad? Please. :rolleyes: I hope you find the 3V folder of your dreams. I'm done with this waste of time.

Those were harmless jokes and that part of my post wasn't even directed at you specifically. I also do not see how they could be taken as disrespectful but ok.

I asked many questions that went unanswered. My questions invited anyone to answer. Me only wanting to hear from people who agree with me is a joke. I didn't really get a great reason for 3v not being a decent candidate for a sprint run. All I got was opposition to the thought of toughness in a folder, as if toughness is a bad thing.

The "3v folder of my dreams" comment is a bit more childish than "lol really" or "kool-aid". But you won't see me make a big deal about it. I won't bother you anymore buddy.

[jpm2]

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

I have knives in both steels and fully agree.

[Pelagic]

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

I have knives in both steels and fully agree.

I respect your opinion, but could either of you elaborate on the apex stability of 3v vs m4? I was under the impression that they were not equal.


To anyone: Did people shoot down the idea of m4 being in a folder initially? How about cruwear? How about 52100? Or is this just specific to 3v?

[jpm2]

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

I have knives in both steels and fully agree.

I respect your opinion, but could either of you elaborate on the apex stability of 3v vs m4? I was under the impression that they were not equal.


To anyone: Did people shoot down the idea of m4 being in a folder initially? How about cruwear? How about 52100? Or is this just specific to 3v?

Maybe my 3v specimen isn't that great, and isn't typical of 3v in general, but I got tired of repairing excess edge damage after clearing vines from chain link fence. I have multiples of m4, 4v, k390, 52100, m2, etc and spend much less time repairing any of them after slamming the edge into the fence a few dozen times.

You asked, but don't take my word for it, go by your own experience.

[Pelagic]

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

I have knives in both steels and fully agree.

I respect your opinion, but could either of you elaborate on the apex stability of 3v vs m4? I was under the impression that they were not equal.


To anyone: Did people shoot down the idea of m4 being in a folder initially? How about cruwear? How about 52100? Or is this just specific to 3v?

Maybe my 3v specimen isn't that great, and isn't typical of 3v in general, but I got tired of repairing excess edge damage after clearing vines from chain link fence. I have multiples of m4, 4v, k390, 52100, m2, etc and spend much less time repairing any of them after slamming the edge into the fence a few dozen times.

You asked, but don't take my word for it, go by your own experience.

I believe you. Thanks for sharing your experience. I've really enjoyed my 3v knives (being impressed with edge stability when I made mistakes) and have often wondered about it in a folder used for work.

[Deadboxhero]

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

I have knives in both steels and fully agree.

I respect your opinion, but could either of you elaborate on the apex stability of 3v vs m4? I was under the impression that they were not equal.


To anyone: Did people shoot down the idea of m4 being in a folder initially? How about cruwear? How about 52100? Or is this just specific to 3v?

Nothing wrong with 3v brotha.
But this is one of those rare situations where steel like CRUWEAR and 4v are just plain better for that application that's why you don't see it being used

It's like trying to make a powerlifter compete in gymnastics.

Like using a hardcore off road truck on a race track against race cars.

Guys like Chad (xplorer) speak with experience, he makes legit knives.

Trust me, if I got insane edge stability from 3v I'd rock that stuff all day. But it's doesn't work like that. Put 3v on a thin small blade and 4v

You'll notice that 3v will blunt and roll faster while 4v will just hold it's shape, zero rolling or chipping.

On a big chopper the opposite, all that malleablity and ductility on 3v comes in handy, especially with heavy impact.

4v will hold it's shape better but is more likely to break in that scenario.

****, you can push 3v to the point were you need even TOUGHER steels like 1v for heavy shock.

1v on a folder though? Too soft even at 60hrc, the benefit is lost.

[Calicoast]

Good stuff.
Really enjoy reading all the questions, replies, knowledge.

I was wondering how 3V would ever work in a folder.
Maybe we will see one in 4V?

M4 is new steel to me, but with no chipping or rolling so far, it feels tough for my daily uses with a regrind - I like it alot. Cruwear is up next.
-C

[dsvirsky]

Having owned 2 folders in 3V, Strider SmF and Spyderco TUFF I didn't see the point of it personally as the same model Strider (SmF) in S30V could do exactly the same things as the 3V blade could do when tested side by side.

I absolutely agree. When you have a blade that's as thick as on the SMF, using 3V adds nothing measurable. A 3V blade should look like this:

Maybe 4V would work even better, but 3V has worked well for me in EDC use.