Where's the 3V?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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steelcity16
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:51 am

I think a scale color like this one would be perfect for a "family" of CPM-3V exclusives. A semi-translucent green similar to the semi-translucent properties of the very popular jade, blurple, and red G10 colors. Paired with DLC and stonewashed blades I can see this being a VERY popular family of exclusive knives that would rival BHQ's Jade/M4.


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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby GarageBoy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:36 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:14 am
Bumping this up as a direct competitor of Spyderco will be releasing a PRODUCTION CPM-3V folder later this month. They were wise enough to see past the haters who say 3V should only be used in fixed blade tree choppers and folders should be reserved for steels with insane wear resistance only. Just because there are a few people who loudly voice their disapproval doesn't mean that there aren't a thousand people out there who have been waiting for this for years and are ready to rain $$$$ upon this concept.
And many have commented on why such an ultralight folder would need 3v - it's like a Cummins diesel in a sports car

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emanuel
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby emanuel » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 am

3V shines in a big knife. In a folder, it's just imbalanced and wasted potential: the edge retention is really bad compared to 4v/vanadis 4e, and all the extra toughness goes to waste because you will never even get close to its limit no matter what tasks you do with it. I'm personally not interested in it. I'm actually more interested in rex 45 runs, and I'm sure a lot of people share this opinion too.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Sjucaveman » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:48 am

Give me cruwear or give me death!
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13
Adam

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blues
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby blues » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:59 am

Sjucaveman wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:48 am
Give me cruwear or give me death!
...by a thousand cuts.



;)

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steelcity16
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:11 am

emanuel wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 am
3V shines in a big knife. In a folder, it's just imbalanced and wasted potential: the edge retention is really bad compared to 4v/vanadis 4e, and all the extra toughness goes to waste because you will never even get close to its limit no matter what tasks you do with it. I'm personally not interested in it. I'm actually more interested in rex 45 runs, and I'm sure a lot of people share this opinion too.

That's just like...your opinion man... :)

A lot people disagree with you as well, and those are the ones who count in this case because we would be voting with our wallets. If there are enough people who want it to support exclusives, then that is all that matters really. All of us have very strong opinions against many knives, brands, steels, designs, blade shapes, coatings, colors, scale materials, countries of origins, heat treatments, price, etc. But as long as there is enough demand for any given combination of these design characteristics, the opinions of the dissenters are just noise....noise that is cancelled out by the cha-ching, cha-ching of the cash register. There are plenty of people who hate BHQ's Jade G10 and say it shows dirt and looks ugly, but who cares about the haters when you sell out most models in minutes. Hard to hear the hate when you are counting up your 10's of thousands in profits for a few minutes worth of sales.

Plenty of people (myself included) don't care about insane wear resistance and think something like Maxamet isn't really needed when you can use 52100 and get it back to scary sharpness in seconds with minimal skill or effort. I would call Maxamet and S110V imbalanced as well because there is not enough toughness to prevent chipping in the case of mishaps and the "ease of shapening" is near the bottom. But I am not out here saying Maxamet and S110V are pointless and should never have been used. A lot of people do want it, there is a market for it, and Spyderco is in business to make money. So more power to Spyderco. I want them to make knives like this because it makes them money, which is good for all of us as Spyderco enthusiasts.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby youmakemehole » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:37 am

A couple points should be made here:

1. Steels and HT methods are constantly improving over time. Weaknesses may disappear or become less significant, and previous measures for certain properties may improve. Thinking that all generalized statements for steels will always hold true and unchanging over time can sometimes be a little ignorant.

2. If you check out what some people make 3v capable of, you may think twice before saying that folder batoning is stupid. For something like 3v or 4v ( or Z-wear, the toughest monstrosity of the bunch), common sense will tell you that the lock or pivot will fail before the blade does, and this is the main reason(I think) why people would say such an attempt is only going to be done by silly "tough-afi's". Now if we theoretically can baton the folder with the lock disengaged though, meaning the handle is freely swinging loose, we would have a situation not too much different than a fixed blade in a perfect, ideal, theoretical situation where a disengaged lock = never enough force applied to the pivot or handle to cause any damage. I would be confident in batoning something as "thin" as a Para 3 blade, I really would not hesitate to baton it through anything if it was only the blade made of 3v. Assuming you could achieve similar harm prevention by having the lock disengaged, I think, is somewhat fair at least. If anyone does not think 3v could hold up to woodworking/bushcraft level hard use with the thickness and geometry of the Para 3 I would tell them that they are wrong, and to watch some videos of 3v made in the last couple years or so.

3. Like others have said, and I feel this needs to for some reason still be reiterated for some, toughness is not only useful for hard use. Any damage to the edge or blade itself that may otherwise happen to a typical folding knife steel that can come from pushing, pulling, twisting, and impact is going to be mitigated to a much greater extent. Like others have stated, toughness is great if your normal tasks can risk the blade getting jammed into nails, staples, or maybe if you are going to be cutting a lot of things like zip ties for instance.

4. PM2/3 owners - how many times have you lost that lovely pokey and pointy laser-like tip on your knife? To me, that tip is one of the top features of the knife that contribute to its widely recognized greatness. Most of the time I lose the tip of my knife, is not due to sharpening, as you can be careful while doing so, but rather from an impact from dropping it or having it slip and jam into something very regrettable for the tip to jam into. So kind of continuing point 3 from above - there are many situations your knife can get into where toughness matters... a LOT! Many of those situations will be accidental as well. If anyone says they have never messed up their tips before, they are either absurdly OCD/obsessive (no offense), or their knives are all found in their playroom along with all the hot wheels and stuffed animals. :D


If you feel you have been irked even by the slightest bit after reading through my post, please accept my sincerest pre-apology and just know I usually am exaggerating half the time and joking for the other half. I do feel like the "anti-tough' and the knife politics and ideals they chose to take on and propagate have tended to be quite unfounded on any practical logic, and rather has become one of those stances some people chose to have so they can seem to have a superior level of sensibility than others and/or just to have an excuse to be demeaning and egotistic. I hate to cause any conflicts or division among what should be a happy and united group of bros (and sisters) who all share a common sense of stoke for pieces of sharp metal with holes in them, but personally I feel the level of intensity and bad vibes stemming from this toughness debate has just been getting a little ridiculous, especially with it being so subjective at times. We can always try to assume less and also strive to be more kind and open-minded than we once were before. :cool:

*steps off soapbox slowly with hands in the air*
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

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emanuel
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby emanuel » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:40 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:11 am

That's just like...your opinion man... :)
Some people never tried it and are curious, and they would buy it just to see how the steel is, yes. But why waste your wallet money to buy it in a folder when for the same money you can get a fixed blade in it? Using it for EDC tasks or anything that a folder is capable of will frustrate you for how underwhelming of a performer it would seem compared to everything else offered until now in exclusive/sprint runs. It's a steel that has one thing that's going for it: toughness. You won't be able to appreciate its pro in a 3 inch blade, that's all I was saying. This isn't an opinion, this is how it is, as me and other have knives in it. You're better off going with Cruwear if you want toughness, while also being able to maintain a functioning edge that's not just good at chopping wood. Or 4v.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your money of course, and I'm not trying to demotivate you or cut down your excitement about it, I'm just trying to paint it in another light that some people might forget, or if they never used it, ignore.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:55 am

emanuel wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:40 am
steelcity16 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:11 am

That's just like...your opinion man... :)
Some people never tried it and are curious, and they would buy it just to see how the steel is, yes. But why waste your wallet money to buy it in a folder when for the same money you can get a fixed blade in it? Using it for EDC tasks or anything that a folder is capable of will frustrate you for how underwhelming of a performer it would seem compared to everything else offered until now in exclusive/sprint runs. It's a steel that has one thing that's going for it: toughness. You won't be able to appreciate its pro in a 3 inch blade, that's all I was saying. This isn't an opinion, this is how it is.

I do have it in fixed blades (Bark River Bravo and LT Wright), but I want it in an EDC blade as well because I don't like to carry fixed blades.

Please tell me what would underwhelm me??? CPM-3V has wear resistance similar to S30V and S35VN by a lot of accounts and shows greater wear resistance than D2 (another popular folder steel) by most charts. That is more than enough wear resistance for me. When I am cutting things tougher than hair and envelopes and amazon boxes I will appreciate the toughness. Hitting a nail or cutting hard, thick zip ties will be less damaging to the edge. Knives like the Native, Manix Backlock (RIP), Manix and Manix XL, Shaman, etc are plenty tough enough to put into hard enough use where the added toughness of 3V will shine over even 4V and Cruwear.

And yes, that is definitely your opinion, not how it is. Just like this is my opinion.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Naperville » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:59 am

Just my 2 cents but I think if designed and advertised properly, a 3V folder could be marketed to Preppers.
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Lum Tanto, Native Chief(?), Street Beat (AEB-L, NioMax or Nitro-V at 63HRC).

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby blues » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:18 am

3V is good stuff. I use it near daily. I'd definitely consider a folder with it if it was in a pattern I prefer (from Golden).

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emanuel
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby emanuel » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:21 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:55 am

When I am cutting things tougher than hair and envelopes and amazon boxes I will appreciate the toughness. Hitting a nail or cutting hard, thick zip ties will be less damaging to the edge.
You'll only get the legendary toughness of 3v at 56-58 hrc. Hitting a nail will not chip it thanks to the extra toughness, but you'll flat out the edge because it lacks strength. That won't happen with 4v since its ran at a higher hrc for its optimal performance, and the toughness is high enough that it will hit annealed steel/iron and have zero damage no matter how hard you hit it. Same with Cruwear. Bark river states they run their 3v at 58-60hrc. Tested it, its 56.5 in my knife.
steelcity16 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:55 am
are plenty tough enough to put into hard enough use where the added toughness of 3V will shine over even 4V and Cruwear.
You won't be able to physically push to the limit a knife from these 3 steels in order to realize a difference in toughness, unless you're whittling brass or other extreme abuses.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:45 am

emanuel wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:21 am

You won't be able to physically push to the limit a knife from these 3 steels in order to realize a difference in toughness, unless you're whittling brass or other extreme abuses.


Who says brass-whittling isn't a favorite hobby of mine?? :D

I guess the point of me bumping this post wasn't to rehash the arguments for and against 3V folders as this has been beat to death here many times before. The point is that the one of the most popular and largest production knife companies in the world and a direct competitor of Spyderco believes in a 3V folder enough to release a production model with this steel. That should say something. I think their choice of a tanto blade may hurt sales of this particular model, but I love that they were able to ignore the vocal minority enough to see that there is plenty of demand for a 3V folder. My hope is that Spyderco and dealers can see the same. I'll be here waiting with a full wallet.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:01 am

I am beginning to wonder if the premium steels like Cruwear, CTS-XHP, Elmax are not being used due to difficulty sourcing them.

Today I saw an interview online with Cold Steel and they have ducked back to using S35VN due to it taking them 9 months to obtain CTS-XHP. In another thread I learned M390 has become difficult to obtain as well. Of course there is CTS-204P and I think another M390 Equivelent is called 20CV that are the equivalent of M390 but I am beginning to think the supply issue must be a large part of the problem we are not seeing the more exotic steels, would go a long way towards explaining S30V's continued usage must be huge stockpile of the stuff.

It has to be hard to speculate on purchasing steel 9 months in advance and recovering your investment in manufacturing.

I do think however from what I have observed if the following steels are used you get an automatic sell out.

#1. CPM M4
#2. Cruwear
#3. M390 and man does the general public need an education on this, M390 is no better or worse than CTS-204P but usually draws a higher price on the secondary market.
#4.CTS-XHP DLC and Orange handles.

When it comes to M4 I wish we could get some more knives made with that steel I mean can you imagine what a slicer The Ikuchi would have been in M4? or CTS-XHP?

I will never see it but if a Stretch were made in M4 I would buy at-least 2 of them. Really want to see more designs in M4 even re-releases of ones already sprinted out.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Catamount123 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:34 am

emanuel,

Why do you feel the the need to argue so vigorously against other Spyder enthusiasts getting a steel they want to try in a folder? If you think it’s a waste, then, obviously, you aren’t being forced to buy anything. Do you think making folders in 3V is going to prevent Spyderco from making them in the steel you prefer? Are you just upset that some don't share your opinion?

Personally, I don’t see the need to make any more folders in S90V, but if others disagree, and there are enough of them to make it worth Spyderco’s (or a dealer/distributor's) while, then I'm not going to to argue with them. I'll just continue to advocate for the steels (and other things) I'd like.

I'll go on record saying that I'll buy a Manix 2 XL in 3V.
Last edited by Catamount123 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby TomAiello » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:45 am

Manix XL in 3v would be a great place to test this. :)

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Naperville » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:52 am

Catamount123 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:34 am
emanuel,

Why do you feel the the need to argue so vigorously against other Spyder enthusiasts getting a steel they want to try in a folder? If you think it’s a waste, then, obviously, you aren’t being forced to buy anything. Do you think making folders in 3V is going to prevent Spyderco from making them in the steel you prefer? Are you just upset that some don't share your opinion?
Slightly off topic, but with regard to people being upset that somebody has an opinion and decides to share it.

I am not speaking of emanuel or anyone in particular, but many people(and I may be guilty too regarding certain topics) who are on social media are myopic and selfish.

I don't know how many times I've brought up the fact that an online "Custom Shop" with 2 to 4 knife models, each having 3 different scales, and 3 different blade steels, would help to satiate or satisfy more customers who want Spyderco knives. Every time that I bring it up, I get run out of town. People that have the wherewithal (the income, time and ability) to get in on Sprint Runs DO NOT WANT others to have access too what they have.

There are other manufacturers who have online Custom Shops doing just what I have said, and it is an excellent way to get the best fit for a product out to everyone, not just a small group of hoarders.

Carry on......
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Lum Tanto, Native Chief(?), Street Beat (AEB-L, NioMax or Nitro-V at 63HRC).

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:23 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:45 am
Manix XL in 3v would be a great place to test this. :)

I agree! The original C95 Manix would be amazing as well. They should bring it back as a small flash batch, dino jimping and all. They could market it as a throwback, or classic re-release, but in 3V!

In reality though, I would think we would see a Para 3 and PM2 in CPM-3V before anything else. There is basically zero risk in this since pretty much any new steel in these two models is an instant sell-out.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby p_atrick » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:33 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:01 am
I am beginning to wonder if the premium steels like Cruwear, CTS-XHP, Elmax are not being used due to difficulty sourcing them.
Yup, Carpenter has a reputation of not catering to the knife market in a consistent manner. I am interested to see how BD1N fares in some Spyderco folders, but I worry that supply constraints will make these knives difficult to purchase. Spyderco already has committed to using BD1N in several of their new kitchen models.

Crucible, however, has a great reputation of working with knife companies. That said, 3V isn't like S30V or S35Vn which was developed in conjunction with Chris Reeve specifically for knives. A quick glance at Crucible's site on 3V leads me to believe that most of the demand for 3V is not the knife community. It is common to have these kinds of steels sold as round stock, which is great for a knife maker if you want to forge it into something flat first. I get the impression that knife companies want large sheets of steel that can be water jet or laser cut with ease. So I am not surprised that our favorite Crucible steels are not as prevalent as we would like (even though Crucible is friendly with knife makers).

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Xplorer » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:54 pm

emanuel wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 am
3V shines in a big knife. In a folder, it's just imbalanced and wasted potential: the edge retention is really bad compared to 4v/vanadis 4e, and all the extra toughness goes to waste because you will never even get close to its limit no matter what tasks you do with it. I'm personally not interested in it....
You're exactly correct. 4V and V4E are more balanced options that not only excel as the world's finest competition choppers but also offer the type of properties that make a better folding knife steel than 3V while still exhibiting extreme toughness. Of course, people will want what they want and there's really nothing wrong with that. 3V is still a great steel even if metallurgy has evolved beyond it. Although I wouldn't buy one, I do hope Spyderco decides to make a 3V folder again. Steels like Maxamet and and S110V are just as out of balance in the opposite direction, so if there are enough buyers out there, why not let the 3V fans have their toys too?

I keep seeing these arguments for 3V about how toughness is more useful than people realize...etc...while it is absolutely true that toughness is VERY useful in a folder, the problem with that argument is that nobody is suggesting a folder in S110V instead of 3V. 4V and V4E are the reason 3V no longer makes as much sense in a folder to most people who understand these steels. 4V and V4E both exhibit the toughness that can allow for batoning while unlocked (if anyone really needs to do that with a pocket knife) and theoretically makes PM3 tips better able to handle twisting, abusive use and resist accidental damage. Additionally the potential for 4V and V4E to be harder than 3V allows the maker a wider range with which to dial in a heat treat that will excel for the given design and application. The biggest practical difference is that 4V and V4E won't roll an edge anywhere near as quickly as 3V even at the same hardness. Anywhere in the range of HRC58 - HRC63/64 4V and V4E are extremely tough and easy enough to sharpen. At HRC64/65 - HRC 67 they exhibit very high wear resistance but sacrifice toughness as they get harder. A V4E folder with appropriate geometry at HRC 62-64 would do everything the 3V fans want while also demonstrating better edge stability and staying sharp longer. This is why those who actually heat treat steel and make knives with these steels have been consistently saying 3V is not that interesting as a folder blade anymore when there's a better option for the same application.

Here's a 4V blade (HRC 64) I put through a series of toughness-based abusive tests. The blade is 3mm at the spine, 1.5" tall and thickness behind the edge is .014". A full flat grind that tapers from just .014" to only .120" over a full 1.5" leaves a very small amount of steel supporting the edge. For a large knife intended for serious hard use this is theoretically way too thin. But, this was for testing and finding limits. As a reference..my M4 PM2 is .015" behind the edge and tapers to .120" over 1 3/16", so my test blade has basically the same top and bottom specs as a PM2 but a more shallow grind angle leaving the edge with less support. After spending 3 days in the woods trying to see if the tip would break off while batoning through hardwoods and getting the knife twisted and stuck in large stubborn hardwood knots without any failures, I brought it home and decided to beat the crap out of it and find the limits. I did a bunch of extreme abuse tests like brass rod whittling, twisting chunks out of antlers, smacking the edge on cement, dropping it on a cement floor, etc... Here's a picture of what happened when I used a steel hammer to pound this thin edge through a nail on a concrete floor.
Image
It took exactly 36 swipes (each side) across an 800 grit ceramic wet-stone to get this edge back to sharp and completely remove any sign of the nail chop. Because I favor toughness over wear resistance, I have continued to work on the heat treat protocol. After additional research and testing, along with valuable input from Shawn at Triple B Knives and Larrin Thomas (PHD metallurgist for anyone who doesn't already know of him) at Knife Steel Nerds I have since been able to produce an even tougher version at the same hardness. I will have pics of those tests available soon.

I've now seen multiple people who want a 3V folder resorting to calling those who don't agree "haters". Another one saying dissenters are being political and are without practical logic. Trying to apply negative labels to people who offer reasons for having a different viewpoint just makes the name callers look petty and angry. There are many legitimate, factual and logical reasons for people to say there are better options than 3V.

In the big picture, even though I am one who has been "diving deep" into researching and testing this myself, none of this really matters IMHO. The number of amazing steels for knives today is huge. They all perform so well that the actual differences are mostly irrelevant in practical applications. When someone wants one particular steel over another, the logical and practical arguments don't usually matter very much. As pure tools both a 3V knife and a 4V knife will realistically kick a$$ if designed and heat treated properly. We can debate the pros and cons and split hairs all day long but at the end of the day, I do think a person that wants a 3V knife should be able to buy what makes them happy.

Best,
CK
Last edited by Xplorer on Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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