Where's the 3V?

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steelcity16
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Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:20 am

Why not throw out some Golden-made sprints in 3V? Military, Manix XL, Native, Shaman, and PM2 to start? Pretty sure all of these would sell like hotcakes given how popular Cruwear is for spydercos and how big of a cult following 3V has. Are they just worried about people assuming that a 3V folder can be batonned through a Sequoya and come out in one piece? I know they arent really practical for most AFIs and we should all just use a hatchet or an axe or a pry bar or a chisel or whatever, but they would still be awesome knives for people in construction or outdoorsmen and they would still sell and make money so why not? I think there is a big market out there being missed by not having at least a few of their flagship folders in 3V, 4V, or Cruwear. Maybe i'm way off, but I would think the flagship models in these still would outsell a lot of the brand new designs that get made each year. And the cost to produce should be much lower since the molds and parts are already there, so just some research on the new steel to optimize heat treat and geometry to make it a proper beater, right?

I guess I just REALLY want a folding pry bar...that's right, i said it...rant over :)
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:27 am

Making a knife like the Para2 in 3V does not make it a pry bar. Using a thicker slab of steel or a sturdier grind does. I do not believe that a Para2 in 3V will outpry a Shaman in S30V. The steel does not define the knife but rather the steel should compliment the design/grind. I like your suggestion but would say that the Shaman is the ideal platform for making a hard use Spydie in 3V, 4V or Cruwear.

I love my Cruwear Military but not because Cruwear made it something it is not but rather because Cruwear has a great balance of properties and Cruwear’s toughness seems to make it great for times when you may make accidental contact with a hard object like a nail or a staple. This is the advantage I see to using a tougher steel in a slicier design.

I love my 4V Mule (I have no 3V :( ) and while it does outperform Cruwear for the most part (I think? Could be in my head?) it does so by giving up quite a bit of corrosion resistance. Not a big factor for me but worth taking into consideration.

Anyway, I support your suggestion to see theses steels used in some sprints and these are just my ramblings on the topic. :o I also believe that the Shaman should use Cruwear as its regular production steel. :D
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Pelagic
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:37 am

Wanting 3v is not about wanting a prybar. I know that's obviously not what you were saying, but I'm just throwing that out there.

There is a notion in a portion of the knife community that the desire for toughness in a blade stems from 1or more of the following:

1. Not knowing how to properly use a blade.
2. Intending to purposely abuse a blade.
3. Wanting a folder to perform fixed blade tasks.
4. Not understanding what edge retention is and the true value of it.
5. Not understanding the benefits of carbide rich alloys
6. Something something, "mall ninja" something.

Not everyone feels this way thankfully (it's just something I've noticed on websites, most notably outside spyderco forums), but I believe we need to step away from the notion that toughness is overrated. 3v is an excellent steel. I have REALLY enjoyed putting my cruwear pm2 through the paces lately. The edge is very forgiving when (the unthinkable happens and) I make a mistake which allows you to use it with confidence. 3v in my experience has even better edge stability than cruwear, which has its place (not just in use, but in the market as well I believe). It sharpens extremely well and has formidable edge retention. With the rising popularity of cruwear, 4v, and other tool steels coupled with the undeniable success of m4, I think a good portion of the community is beginning to see the value in the properties these materials exhibit. They are great for actual, real world use. They just don't carry the same prestige as steels riddled with Vanadium and/or Tungsten, for several reasons (which vary in relevance). I would personally take 3v over s30v in virtually any kind of knife. As much as I like s110v, as much as I'm dying to try Maxamet, as much as I'm looking forward to Rex 45, as much as I'd like hap72 or Rex 121 to make an appearance, I'm hoping more well-rounded steels gain popularity. And I think if more people gave steels like this a chance, they'd find themselves reaching for that model a lot more often than anticipated.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Ankerson » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:53 am

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:27 am
Making a knife like the Para2 in 3V does not make it a pry bar. Using a thicker slab of steel or a sturdier grind does. I do not believe that a Para2 in 3V will outpry a Shaman in S30V. The steel does not define the knife but rather the steel should compliment the design/grind. I like your suggestion but would say that the Shaman is the ideal platform for making a hard use Spydie in 3V, 4V or Cruwear.

I love my Cruwear Military but not because Cruwear made it something it is not but rather because Cruwear has a great balance of properties and Cruwear’s toughness seems to make it great for times when you may make accidental contact with a hard object like a nail or a staple. This is the advantage I see to using a tougher steel in a slicier design.

I love my 4V Mule (I have no 3V :( ) and while it does outperform Cruwear for the most part (I think? Could be in my head?) it does so by giving up quite a bit of corrosion resistance. Not a big factor for me but worth taking into consideration.

Anyway, I support your suggestion to see theses steels used in some sprints and these are just my ramblings on the topic. :o I also believe that the Shaman should use Cruwear as its regular production steel. :D
Ah yeah, exactly.

You said it all there.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:16 am

I'd be into a 3V Manix 2 sprint, with the original sabre grind.

If you really want a pry bar, I've got a Bark River Bravo in 3V that performs that role exceptionally well, while still being a heck of a knife too.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby zhyla » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:32 am

I've mostly heard of 3V in the thick fixed blade/chopper context. Why would someone want it in a 3" folder?

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby dsvirsky » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:34 am

I'd love to see a Spydie in 3V, but please no folding prybars. Where 3V really shines in a small knife is edge stability in a thinly ground blade. IMHO, the Delica, with its 2.5 mm blade, would be a better choice that the Shaman and its 3.7 mm blade.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Johnnie1801 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:36 am

Rather see some 4v/vanadis4e
Currently enjoying Spyderco's in - S30V, VG10, Super Blue, Cruwear x4, CTS XHP, S110V x2, M4 x3, S35VN, CTS 204P x2, S90V, HAP 40, K390, RWL34, MAXAMET, ZDP 189, REX 45


Jon

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:39 am

zhyla wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:32 am
I've mostly heard of 3V in the thick fixed blade/chopper context. Why would someone want it in a 3" folder?
Edge stability.

A tougher blade can handle "mishaps" (like hitting a staple when breaking down cardboard) much better than a harder but more brittle edge.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:40 am

zhyla wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:32 am
I've mostly heard of 3V in the thick fixed blade/chopper context. Why would someone want it in a 3" folder?
You'd have to ask yourself "why is apex stability important?" to answer that question. And to answer that question, you'd have to ask yourself "what materials will I be cutting?"

It also wouldn't hurt to ask yourself "why is cruwear so popular?" as well as "why are cruwear and 3v MUCH more similar than the opinions thereof?"
Last edited by Pelagic on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:41 am

Johnnie1801 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:36 am
Rather see some 4v/vanadis4e
The upcoming Province (Ankerson/Sanders) Bowie is in 4V.


I'd love to see some more, too.

Southfork sprint in V4E would be AMAZING. :)

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Uplandwest » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:09 am

I agree I wondered why no 3v blades but with Cruwear on the up I'm happy. I consider Cruwear a happy medium between 3v and 4v but they're all from the "KICK A**" family of steels that you don't have to babysit. If you haven't tried Cruwear try it and I'm one of those 3v addicts I feel like I'm cheating of 3v but Cruwear is amazing.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:38 am

TomAiello wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:16 am
I'd be into a 3V Manix 2 sprint, with the original sabre grind.

If you really want a pry bar, I've got a Bark River Bravo in 3V that performs that role exceptionally well, while still being a heck of a knife too.
I've had a few 3V Bark Rivers as well. AWESOME knives, but I just think it would be cool to have a Spyderco folder with the Spyderco looks and ergonomics with the utility of a 3V Fixed blade. I'm not planning to baton firewood or pry a door open, so I'm not concerned about the knife exploding apart. I just think it would be cool to have a knife I can beat on (within reason) in a compact folding package in a format I enjoy like a Native, Manix or Military or Shaman or something.

Regardless of why myself or others want such a knife or the practicality of such a knife, I believe thing that Spyderco should be considering is will these knives sell? And in my opinion a Sprint of 3V in a Shaman, Military, Manix, PM2, and Native would be a very quick sellout. Not to mention it might attract a whole new customer base to the brand. Think of all of the fixed blade guys who drool over the 3V Bark Rivers, Advernture Sworns, LT Wrights, etc. Now a folder in a cool format with 3V comes along and they have to have it. Then all of a sudden they realize what they have been missing and become full blown spydieholics! :eek: I just think there is an huge untapped market that Spyderco can reach with these knives that will then get hooked and buy other knives like the Salts and million other awesome knives Spyderco has.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Xplorer » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:07 pm

Spyderco does a very good job of using steels appropriately for the given design. The design of a knife is 95%+ of what makes it perform. To make a folding knife that is intended to be "beat on" (setting aside my opinion that it's a generally bad idea) is a challenge that has far more to do with the material dimensions (thickness, length, grind, etc..) than the choice of steel. Based on design criteria alone, one could make a knife out of S110V (or insert any steel of your choosing) that will take far more of beating than a 3V knife that wasn't designed for such a use.

The attribute that 3V offers is indeed tremendous toughness. While this attribute suits fixed blades intended to be used for chopping or batonning (such as those offered by Bark River and others) it really doesn't offer a balance of attributes that is appealing in folding knives. 3V's toughness does provide edge stability when impacting hard objects, but not so much that it outweighs it's low wear resistance when compared to other tough steels. If a steel has a theoretical toughness capacity that well exceeds the design limitations of the knife itself, one has to ask "is there another steel that ALSO has a toughness capacity greater than the design limits of the knife but also provides better edge retention and/or corrosion resistance than 3V?". The reason designers and knife makers don't generally choose to use 3V for folders is because the answer to that question is always Yes. 4V, V4E, M4, Elmax, LC200N, Vanax (the list goes on and on) are all better balanced choices for making folder blades "tougher" than what nearly all (if not all) folding knife design are intended to be used for.

I too would love to see some 3V offered by Spyderco. I would just want it to be a fixed blade design intended to be used in a way that makes 3V shine. Something like a parang, a bolo, or a kukri would be ideal.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Ankerson » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:54 pm

Spyderco did make a folder in 3V, the TUFF.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:04 pm

Xplorer, if you think 3v has "low wear resistance", do you also feel s30v has low wear resistance? And if not, why do so many cut tests put these 2 steels near equal to each other in cutting performance? Is s30v a bad choice for folders also?

In what cases does a steel's toughness capacity "well exceed the design limitations of the knife itself"? And do you think those models are the ones people would like to see 3v in? (I don't think anyone is proposing a 3v delica....)

I knew someone would chime in and say "but design/blade geometry matters more than steel", but this is completely irrelevant to the desire for some 3v or any other steel. Deadboxhero could post saying how much he wants maxamet to stay in Spyderco's lineup, and Cliff Stamp could interject with "ya know, by reducing the angle of microbevel by 2.5 degrees per side, k390 performs the same as maxamet" and that is also irrelevant and does not mean Shawn's request lacks importance (sorry to use real people in a hypothetical example).

And, I'd really like to know why cruwear is so heavily praised as a great blade steel in folders, but if you give cruwear....

A HINT more toughness
A HINT less edge retention, and
A HINT less corrosion resistance

.... all of a sudden you have a steel that doesn't belong anywhere near a folder? Lol really?

Just yesterday my son in law was asking me to recommend to him a tough knife, because at his work he does some cutting in situations where it's very easy for the edge to come in contact with steel after a successful cut. I began talking to him about various blade steels like 3v, 4v, cruwear, and m4. He said he could carry a fixed blade at work but preferred to have a folder. He asked why there weren't more folders in 3v and I didn't have an answer that made sense for him. It seems like people passionately oppose the idea of apex stability in a folding knife. I'm just not sipping that type of koolaid. I use knives in imperfect situations and truly appreciate a forgiving edge. I do not chop, pry, baton, or "beat on" any folding knives. I recently broke the very tip off my cruwear pm2. I'd try 3v in a heartbeat.
Last edited by Pelagic on Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Ankerson » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:15 pm

We have CPM M4 already in various folders that are available NOW.

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.

M4, 4V (V4E) are the most popular steels for Blade Sports, that leaves zero doubt about performance.
Last edited by Ankerson on Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:15 pm
We have CPM M4 already in various folders that are available NOW.

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.
I'm honestly unaware of any spyderco folders with 4v! Pardon my ignorance, which ones?

3V won't offer increased apex stability in a folder? Could you explain? If you accidentally hit a nail when cutting something, can you honestly say 3v and m4 would receive damage equally, all other variables being equal?

How about from a business standpoint? Could 3v be easier to obtain or work with possibly?
Last edited by Pelagic on Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Ankerson
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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Ankerson » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:19 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:15 pm
We have CPM M4 already in various folders that are available NOW.

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.
I'm honestly unaware of any spyderco folders with 4v! Pardon my ignorance, which ones?

3V won't offer increased apex stability in a folder? Could you explain?

How about from a business standpoint? Could 3v be easier to obtain or work with possibly?
I said CPM M4....

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Re: Where's the 3V?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:21 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:19 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:18 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:15 pm
We have CPM M4 already in various folders that are available NOW.

3V won't offer anything over M4 in a folder.
I'm honestly unaware of any spyderco folders with 4v! Pardon my ignorance, which ones?

3V won't offer increased apex stability in a folder? Could you explain?

How about from a business standpoint? Could 3v be easier to obtain or work with possibly?
I said CPM M4....
Oh, well I have various other questions that remain unanswered. My mistake.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?


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