Do people tend to exaggerate steel performance?

[Doc Dan]

I know people have differing experiences because we all use our knives differently. However, I do see a lot of claims, good and bad, that are the same as all of the internet and marketing hype. Whatever is popular at the moment is better than XXXX steel, even if XXXX steel does not have the chemical make up to support such wild claims. I am skeptical by nature of a lot of these claims. If you cannot show me proof of these exaggerations, I assume that they are exactly that...exaggerations.

Another issue is that people will exaggerate how poor steels are. Take 440C for example. I remember when this was THE super steel. Has anyone ever used an old BUCK knife from the 60's or 70's in that steel? It holds a durable edge for a long time, but a lot of that was the way the blade was ground. The edge was very durable, but not easy to sharpen because of its odd (for the time) grind. Today, a lot of people that have little experience will say that 440C is a bad steel. It is not. It is different from ZDP-189, for example, in some ways. But there are trade offs with each steel and the heat treat and the blade grind and the edge geometry.

Some people are wildly claiming BD1 ranks higher than S30V, or that S35VN is far superior to S30V, and it goes on, blah, blah, blah.

[Sumdumguy]

Yes. But we must realize that we all have different definitions of sharp as well as different definitions of performance. Also, sharpening ability may be the largest influencing factor here. Some folks struggle with certain steels and then it is that steel that is inferior. If you are unable to sharpen all steels equally then you are unable to make any comparisons between them except for stating how they behave for just yourself.

I believe bias comes into play. Both in the positive and negative manner. S30V got some bad stigma and has always had to live with it. S110V got a lot of hype and is still being propped up by that ( and it's high performance ). Many think 8cr13 must be bad because it is what is offered in chinese knives. Marketing, internet lore and preconceived notions all have a strong affect on some peoples perceptions of steels.

I find it interesting that the super steels of yesterday are often seen as inadequate even though they were the best thing going just a few years ago. I feel as though many see ZDP as old news but to me it is still a unique high performance steel.

Sorry but no knife can go six months with out sharpening and stay sharp (by my definition of sharp) and no knife will stay sharp when using concrete as a cutting board. These sound like hyperbole to me.

I am a steel geek and enjoy them all and I like to try out new steels and make comparisons but I also try to keep expectations realistic. From 1095 up to Maxamet and almost everything in between I like them all. The design of a knife comes first, blade geometry comes second and finally they blade steel should complement the package and it's intended use.

I believe I used the term working edge, it is not razor sharp, I have a razor knife for that. I am always cutting against something usually wood, vinyl, or something else of the like. I do not use concrete as a cutting board, but sometimes(a few times a week) it does come in contact with it while cutting packaging, insulation, banding, drywall, etc.

I do hone them every once in a while, but I do not sharpen them more than twice a year. Heck, my PM2 went for almost a year without sharpening at one point.

Also, let me state that I only use the front 2 inches or less of a blade for 90% of the tasks that I am talking about, so the back half of the blade stays sharp.

If you seriously doubt my claim, I invite you and anyone else to come work with me for a day. I'll be sure to set up a fun one,
I'm always down for free labor.

To recap: S110V will hold a working edge that sufficiently accomplishes my required tasks for up to a year between sharpenings with an occasional hone.

[Some1]

Yes. But we must realize that we all have different definitions of sharp as well as different definitions of performance. Also, sharpening ability may be the largest influencing factor here. Some folks struggle with certain steels and then it is that steel that is inferior. If you are unable to sharpen all steels equally then you are unable to make any comparisons between them except for stating how they behave for just yourself.

I believe bias comes into play. Both in the positive and negative manner. S30V got some bad stigma and has always had to live with it. S110V got a lot of hype and is still being propped up by that ( and it's high performance ). Many think 8cr13 must be bad because it is what is offered in chinese knives. Marketing, internet lore and preconceived notions all have a strong affect on some peoples perceptions of steels.

I find it interesting that the super steels of yesterday are often seen as inadequate even though they were the best thing going just a few years ago. I feel as though many see ZDP as old news but to me it is still a unique high performance steel.

Sorry but no knife can go six months with out sharpening and stay sharp (by my definition of sharp) and no knife will stay sharp when using concrete as a cutting board. These sound like hyperbole to me.

I am a steel geek and enjoy them all and I like to try out new steels and make comparisons but I also try to keep expectations realistic. From 1095 up to Maxamet and almost everything in between I like them all. The design of a knife comes first, blade geometry comes second and finally they blade steel should complement the package and it's intended use.

I believe I used the term working edge, it is not razor sharp, I have a razor knife for that. I am always cutting against something usually wood, vinyl, or something else of the like. I do not use concrete as a cutting board, but sometimes(a few times a week) it does come in contact with it while cutting packaging, insulation, banding, drywall, etc.

I do hone them every once in a while, but I do not sharpen them more than twice a year. Heck, my PM2 went for almost a year without sharpening at one point.

Also, let me state that I only use the front 2 inches or less of a blade for 90% of the tasks that I am talking about, so the back half of the blade stays sharp.

If you seriously doubt my claim, I invite you and anyone else to come work with me for a day. I'll be sure to set up a fun one,
I'm always down for free labor.

To recap: S110V will hold a working edge that sufficiently accomplishes my required tasks for up to a year between sharpenings with an occasional hone.

You are isolated with the people who rarely use your knives by your own admission. A knife with steady use in almost any medium other than ice cream will need to be sharpened more than once a year regardless of steel or honing. Even then, honing is not for high hardness, carbide rich steels. I don't know where you came up with the idea that spyderco's s110v would ever need to get honed. It doesn't roll like an old butcher's knife made from 1040 steel at 52 RC where you just slap it against a butcher's steel to straighten the edge and keep going. It doesn't work that way no matter how much you want it to.

[Sumdumguy]

I'm confused as to where I admitted that I rarely use my knives. Can you clarify?

I have always honed all of my knives ever since I started using them way back when I was a sous chef. I never professed to being a steel expert nor an expert knife sharpener, quite the opposite. I am a knife user and I use my knives the way I use them and they work exactly how I need them to work. How is that so hard to understand?

That hour I would spend sharpening is worth $100 in my line of work. If the edge still does it's job, why would I choose to use that time sharpening it, when I could use that same time to instead make $100?

Ya feel me? Time is money.

[Pelagic]

After a few months of honing s110v I'd imagine the edge retention is approaching abysmal. The apex is probably like a paperclip that has been bent back and forth until it is about to snap. Just 5-10 minutes spent occasionally removing the fatigued steel should yield a huge difference in performance.

[JonLeBlanc]

Yes. When someone says they go 6 months without sharpening s110v I wonder if they do anything with it aside from open letters on weekends.

I work in a restaurant/bakery and use my S110V PM2 many, many times in a day. Lots of cardboard, lots of cutting board perpendicular contact, etc. When I get home I strop it on strops loaded with 6 and 1 micron dia-paste. Not only did the single minuscule chip I put on the edge in the first week of having it strop right out (very quickly), but the edge also stays utterly ludicrous-sharp. I was not expecting quite this level of performance! At this rate, I’m not sure if I foresee having to sharpen it at all in the near future. Maybe no one will believe me, but whatever, Ima just keep using/loving my Paramilitaries :cool:

[Some1]

After a few months of honing s110v I'd imagine the edge retention is approaching abysmal. The apex is probably like a paperclip that has been bent back and forth until it is about to snap. Just 5-10 minutes spent occasionally removing the fatigued steel should yield a huge difference in performance.

If he did that then he could go five or six years without full resharpening.

[The Meat man]

There is a difference between honing on bare leather and honing using an abrasive paste or compound. In the latter case, you are actually removing material, not just straightening an edge.

[TomAiello]

While I cant speak for anyone else, I can say with 100% confidence that s110v is a crazy steel that holds a working edge under the most extreme abuse(cutting against concrete and brick). I do hone it once every week or so, when I think about it.

I'm with you.

I try to compare apples to apples and spyderco has given me a good chance to at least compare some of the most popular steels (like s110v, s30v, BD1, 52100, Cruwear and Maxamet) in the same platform with the same manufacturer's (Spyderco's) heat treat.

So I do think it's fair to compare those straight across.

The time when it seems like the comparison is unfair is when someone says something like "well, my experience is that Elmax (in my Phil Wilson custom) holds an edge better than Maxamet (in my production Manix 2 LW". Whenever someone has an amazing experience with a knife, the first thing they zero in on is the steel, which is only one of many factors.

But when comparing straight across between identical platforms, I think it's fair to make comparisons of the steel based on personal experience.

[Pelagic]

Yes. When someone says they go 6 months without sharpening s110v I wonder if they do anything with it aside from open letters on weekends.

I work in a restaurant/bakery and use my S110V PM2 many, many times in a day. Lots of cardboard, lots of cutting board perpendicular contact, etc. When I get home I strop it on strops loaded with 6 and 1 micron dia-paste. Not only did the single minuscule chip I put on the edge in the first week of having it strop right out (very quickly), but the edge also stays utterly ludicrous-sharp. I was not expecting quite this level of performance! At this rate, I’m not sure if I foresee having to sharpen it at all in the near future. Maybe no one will believe me, but whatever, Ima just keep using/loving my Paramilitaries :cool:

You're not honing a blade if you're using 6 micron diamond compound, you're sharpening, so that's very easy to believe.

[Donut]

If anyone has questions about this topic, I suggest they read Cliff Stamp's entire post history. :)

What I think I know is:
1. There's a lot more to steel performance than just cutting some stuff, so most tests are a very rough ballpark.
2. Steel isn't as super consistent than it is advertised to be. So, you could run the same exact test twice and get different results.
3. You'd have to be a robot to get reliable results.
4. There are a lot of things, like angles and blade profiles that affect cutting performance more than most steel differences.
5. Heat treating will make more differences to performance than most steel differences.

I do feel like, by human nature, if you had a Manix in CPM-S30V and a Military in CPM-S30V, both from the same batch of steel and heat treat batch, if you liked the Military over the Manix, you would feel like the Military outperforms the Manix.

[shunsui]

My personal experience, used Gin-1 and ATS-55 for many years. Got the S90V Para2 and was very impressed with the working edge for cutting cardboard.

Bought more S90V (and some others).

Happy I'm not using slipjoints any more. YMMV.

[TomAiello]

What I think I know is:
1. There's a lot more to steel performance than just cutting some stuff, so most tests are a very rough ballpark.
2. Steel isn't as super consistent than it is advertised to be. So, you could run the same exact test twice and get different results.
3. You'd have to be a robot to get reliable results.
4. There are a lot of things, like angles and blade profiles that affect cutting performance more than most steel differences.
5. Heat treating will make more differences to performance than most steel differences.

Which is another way of saying "all good, just different."

Every person is different, and every person will use their tools slightly differently, so the best tool for one person won't be the same as the best tool for another.

Just buy a bunch of different knives, try them all out, and pick the one that works best for you. :)

[Deadboxhero]

Depends on what you call sharp. I can't go a week without Sharpening any steel. What I find is that with more wear resistance and hardness means I can Sharpen when I WANT too, not because I HAVE too.

There are those among us that say all you need is 420hc and 8cr13mov. But you physically have to stop what you're doing and Sharpen which sometimes is more then an inconvenience, there just isn't always time.
Also burr removal at lower end steels are atrocious and that's probably the biggest reason peoples knives aren't as sharp as they could be is that they still unknowningly leave a bit of burr at the Apex or they straighten it out to a wire edge that breaks off and goes "insta" dull.
Let alone the fact I have to "fight" soft steels on the stone to get the same Crispy Crispy apex without crushing it on the stone when finishing.
Not enjoyble, but if I lowered my standards I wouldn't care.

What's facinating is I find people need to use higher grit stones and strops as "crutches" to remove and reduce burr with low end steels because they can't get them sharp with low grit (320-600grit) stones.
Either they crush the Apex because they deburr too aggressively and the steel is soft to hold the Apex underneath or they simply cannot remove the burr at low grit since the steel is refuses to let go of the burr.


That doesn't mean super duper steels don't have there own set of problems either.

I think one of the biggest problems with "high end super steels" is people think they can buy them to get away from Sharpening.

There is no escaping Sharpening. Its counter intuitive but if you're not Sharpening, you're missing about 80% of the performance you're paying for since you can customize the edge geometry and finish to suit the job or preference and synergize the steel and also sharpen at your discretion, not because the edge is so soft and blunt it physically can't cut requiring Sharpening.

If all your doing is stroping or honing on ceramic your missing out on a whole world of differences.


As far as people "hyping" steels that don't have the "alloy power" on the spec sheet

I find that if that's your only point of reference for what make a knife perform your going to miss out on alot of really cool steels.


That's why when I talk about Cruwear and bd1n.
I speak with experience. It's important to have knowledge about steel alloys and spec sheets but if you're basing all performance based on what a steel shows on paper you're going to miss out on steels that might synergize what you find to be the best performance. Some steels cater more to people that like toothy edges, some cater more to folks that like polish. Some people are clumsy with their edges and need more durability from either geometry, alloy or HT or all three. Some people want absolute performance over durability and need geometry, alloy and HT to maximize it.

All of this stuff is more complicated then just how much Vanadium is added.

If there was some kind of cutting competition for folding knives that could highlight the difference between different cutting tasks that would sort things out very fast and open peoples eyes.

Of course it would be a silly looking competition to watch us steel nerds use folders for some geeky event hahaha

[wrdwrght]

If anyone has questions about this topic, I suggest they read Cliff Stamp's entire post history. :)

What I think I know is:
1. There's a lot more to steel performance than just cutting some stuff, so most tests are a very rough ballpark.
2. Steel isn't as super consistent than it is advertised to be. So, you could run the same exact test twice and get different results.
3. You'd have to be a robot to get reliable results.
4. There are a lot of things, like angles and blade profiles that affect cutting performance more than most steel differences.
5. Heat treating will make more differences to performance than most steel differences.

I do feel like, by human nature, if you had a Manix in CPM-S30V and a Military in CPM-S30V, both from the same batch of steel and heat treat batch, if you liked the Military over the Manix, you would feel like the Military outperforms the Manix.

Just so, Brian, just so. And the implications are probably more profound than any tendency to dig in on a given steel's goodness. We're all really walking on ball-bearings here.

[PStone]

...Just buy a bunch of different knives, try them all out, and pick the one that works best for you. :)

That’s exactly what I do.

I look at steel when I buy. Definitely. But i decide to keep and use a knife based on the handle more than anything.

[tvenuto]

What’s sharpening? When a knife gets dull I just buy a new one. :spyder:

Haha I’m just joking...I usually don’t wait that long! :eek:

[SF Native]

If anyone has questions about this topic, I suggest they read Cliff Stamp's entire post history. :)

What I think I know is:
1. There's a lot more to steel performance than just cutting some stuff, so most tests are a very rough ballpark.
2. Steel isn't as super consistent than it is advertised to be. So, you could run the same exact test twice and get different results.
3. You'd have to be a robot to get reliable results.
4. There are a lot of things, like angles and blade profiles that affect cutting performance more than most steel differences.
5. Heat treating will make more differences to performance than most steel differences.

I do feel like, by human nature, if you had a Manix in CPM-S30V and a Military in CPM-S30V, both from the same batch of steel and heat treat batch, if you liked the Military over the Manix, you would feel like the Military outperforms the Manix.

My personal experience is that spyderco is pretty consistent and better than most. I am usually happy with the results of my spyderco knives. Can’t say the same with other makers.
Can I tell a difference for one spyderco to the next? With my mules I can. And they are the same geometry. Can I tell that s110v is better than s30v (both from spyderco), not really.

[Stuart Ackerman]

My test knives loaned to folk with steels that are not revealed, showed me that most knife using folk are not be able to tell the difference.
Even when they sharpened the knives on water stones and ceramic rods, they battled to "see" a difference.

The exception was just one.
D2 stood out, mainly because it was hard to get a decent edge with stones in a short time.

But the rest, 12C27, N690, 440C, ATS34, and VG10, all were hard to tell apart.

Yup, the so called "super steels" are harder to sharpen that my test knives.

But, in the general living day by day usage of knives, who really counts how many cuts they have made before they need to sharpen a particular blade?
:)

[500Nitro]

But, in the general living day by day usage of knives, who really counts how many cuts they have made
before they need to sharpen a particular blade?
:)

Not with Spyderco but Green River vs some others, when you have heaps of dead animals on the ground
that's when I notice a difference and my mate really noticed it.

I'd love to give a few Spydies a go at see of the jobs and see how they went.