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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:02 pm
by Evil D
mattman wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:38 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:32 pm
mattman wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:10 pm


Why are you trying to make this into something it isn't?

I know I have a lot going on in my personal life so maybe I'm a little more sensitive about things these days than I should be but it seems to me there has been a change in tone over the last year where people seem to want to argue over things that they don't seem to know anything about or even care about. I'm all for a healthy debate but it feels like some people just want to squash ideas just because they don't like them, nevermind everyone else who does. It's no wonder a lot of the regulars who posted here when I joined don't come around anymore.
Ehh.. maybe it's because I recognized your "passionate" responses to tvenuto points, whereas someone who hasn't been around as long might not recognize your style of writing. I am pretty sure tvenuto took them as you intended (without malice) judging by his replies...?


Yeah hopefully. It's hard to convey an idea over the internet. I hope I don't seem argumentative, I just try to make a point.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:25 pm
by tvenuto
I did indeed take them that way. D and I have had many discussions previously and will hopefully have many more. Sometimes we are of the same opinion other times not. I know the steel heads here are well aware of the trade offs inherent in thinner blade stock. I did just feel the need to note the trade offs explicitly, because after some time on Internet forums I know that we’re about 2 days from a newbie discovering this thread (and others) and posting:

“Just bought a Delica, didn’t realize it was such a poor cutter. I’ve carried it a few days and not cut much. Think I can still return it?!?”

I also was noting them because these trade offs aren’t ones I’m terribly interested in, and as such I probably wouldn’t buy this “grind sprint” (unless it ends up being a forum knife <-there’s an idea). However, as I’ve mentioned in every post, I voted yes on the poll because I think it’s a cool idea. I’m not naysaying the idea just because I’m not interested in buying it. I’m also saying why, because maybe it will make others think about where they might fall on this. I don’t see what there is to debate, really. No one (hopefully) wants to debate that (all things being equal) a thinner shape is easier to break than a thicker one. So from there it’s just personal preference and a knowledge of where an how you use your knives. For my money, I’m more comfortable erring on the side of “doesn’t rust” and “doesn’t break.” Again that’s just me, and I’m open to changing my mind. That can only happen if we engage each other in discussion and challenge them from time to time. My mentor used to say: “growth happens at the borders of support and challenge.” If we always parrot other ideas, no one learns. If we always just try to yell our point, no one learns.

I think this thread has been productive and hopefully Spyderco takes notice in the passionate discussion.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:53 pm
by ZrowsN1s
(I was writting this before I saw your last post tvenuto, I think we are on the same page, but I'll post it for others just in case the purpose of this thread was not clear to them.)


I think the premise of the question may have gotten lost in traslation somehow.

If you're on the Spyderco forum there's a good chance you are more into knives than the average Joe. You are most likely a knife aficionado of some sort or another...

Would you, as a Knife AFI, be interested in flash batches of blades ground thinner for better performance in slicing?(perhaps even with higher hardness in some cases)...

...With you, as an AFI, obviously realizing the inherent trade offs that come with this performance?

i.e. anyone knows that a thinner blade means less lateral force can be applied to the blade before it bends, tips are more susceptible to breakage, and the "trade off" for this is reduced drag and better slicing.

We're not talking better performance for any and all situations, or cutting any and all material, we are talking about performance in certain situations and cutting certain materials that benefit from a blade with a thinner profile. i.e. cardboard, packages, mail, or food (the kind of things I personally use my knife for 90% of the time, which is why this interests me) ...

If this sounds like an idea that is right up your alley, check that "Yes" box.
If you don't think you'd benefit from a knife like that check the "No" box.

This thread was about trying to guage interest, not about debating why thin blades can't do X Y or Z. Though as long as it remains civil (as it has so far) debate is always welcome.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:44 pm
by Some1
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:53 pm
(I was writting this before I saw your last post tvenuto, I think we are on the same page, but I'll post it for others just in case the purpose of this thread was not clear to them.)


I think the premise of the question may have gotten lost in traslation somehow.

If you're on the Spyderco forum there's a good chance you are more into knives than the average Joe. You are most likely a knife aficionado of some sort or another...

Would you, as a Knife AFI, be interested in flash batches of blades ground thinner for better performance in slicing?(perhaps even with higher hardness in some cases)...

...With you, as an AFI, obviously realizing the inherent trade offs that come with this performance?

i.e. anyone knows that a thinner blade means less lateral force can be applied to the blade before it bends, tips are more susceptible to breakage, and the "trade off" for this is reduced drag and better slicing.

We're not talking better performance for any and all situations, or cutting any and all material, we are talking about performance in certain situations and cutting certain materials that benefit from a blade with a thinner profile. i.e. cardboard, packages, mail, or food (the kind of things I personally use my knife for 90% of the time, which is why this interests me) ...

If this sounds like an idea that is right up your alley, check that "Yes" box.
If you don't think you'd benefit from a knife like that check the "No" box.

This thread was about trying to guage interest, not about debating why thin blades can't do X Y or Z. Though as long as it remains civil (as it has so far) debate is always welcome.
Personally i like the idea as long as the knives come with a disclaimer like the non-corrosion resistant knives have. I think a lot of people's eyes would widen when they see just how easy it is to cut certain things for longer periods with knife like this.

I like the idea someone brought up of the mule team being swapped to something like the military or pm2 blade so it wouldn't be so hard for more guys to carry and report on the steels. The idea presented in this thread would be a great addition to that. Let guys carry thin behind the edge blades and report back how it works for them. All in the vein of real world testing. And it's not a big deal if they don't care for it as you're not buying an entire knife. All the pros of the mule team project without the restrictions of the knife being a fixed blade without a handle or sheath. Also with a disclaimer that the knife may not lock up properly, etc., and that it's a prototype test platform of the blade, not an entire knife.

If a PM2 street value with s30v is around $115 or so, i could imagine these blades would cost around $60. Not to mention there's less necessary steel to create a folder blade than a full tang fixed blade.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:00 pm
by tvenuto
The idea of a “blade swappable” folder for testing has come up before. It’s a great idea in theory but I believe that Sal said there’s the issue of lock interchangeability. Again these would be going to more handy folks in theory, but the last thing Spyderco wants is an unreliable folder out there waiting to bite someone.

I hear you on the mule team though. I own several and don’t use them nearly enough due to my not carrying a fixed blade 99% of the time.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:03 pm
by Bill1170
I voted yes. It seems like this would work best with Golden models, because the SpyderCrew can directly monitor things. Also, it’d be better to do this on more expensive knives to weed out the bargain hunters and make it financially worthwhile for Spyderco. Like PM2 instead of the Native. Of course, I consider the PM2 a bargain anyway!

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:07 pm
by gundamaniac
I vote yes. This sounds like an interesting concept. As others have already stated, of course this is with the caveat and disclaimer that the these "performance" models are thinner and therefore could be less durable. After all, the fact that we're discussing this on the Spyderco forums means that we are all likely knife knuts and aficionados who know what we'd be buying into, but the knives would likely be available to the average joe as well who may not be as savvy to the pros and cons of these "performance" models.

Great discussion so far by the way!

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
by bearfacedkiller
I would buy a thinned out Military and S30V would be perfectly acceptable for this concept. Sign me up!

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:54 pm
by md8232
I’m on board for a nice slicer or two. It would save the time & cost of a regrind.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:26 pm
by Doc Dan
Actually, my pea brain has wondered if a Chaparral 3.5 would be a good idea. I had the thought a couple of weeks ago during some delirium or other, and it seemed like a good idea to me at the time. The Chaparral is a superior cutter of apples, cardboard, etc. and a longer blade would allow me to cut larger things, like fresh baked bread, large fruit, and etc.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:38 pm
by bearfacedkiller
I would love to see a folder with a 3.75-4 inch blade and 2mm blade stock and a full flat grind. The Police is pretty slicey for its length but I know we could get even slicier. :) Something like an Endura with 2mm blade stock would be an amazing slicer, especially with a thin edge.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:04 am
by Evil D
I mentioned this in another thread already (or maybe this one I've lost track) but there are already models approaching the thickness that I'm looking for, the Mantra and Chaparral are two examples and the Caly 3 isn't bad either. It wouldn't take much to push them just a little further and the payoff would be huge.

I keep thinking a pass-around might help with some of the people who are unsure about this but I've got like $250+ into my Military so I dunno if I feel up to the risk lol.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:13 am
by xceptnl
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
I would buy a thinned out Military and S30V would be perfectly acceptable for this concept. Sign me up!
This seems like a great test platform where only the grind geometry is changed allowing users and AFIs alike to make direct comparisons to the standard production model Millie.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:29 am
by Evil D
xceptnl wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:13 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
I would buy a thinned out Military and S30V would be perfectly acceptable for this concept. Sign me up!
This seems like a great test platform where only the grind geometry is changed allowing users and AFIs alike to make direct comparisons to the standard production model Millie.


My only concern is whether or not S30V can handle being thinner out that much. This idea is definitely more suited to some steels and less so to others. If it's done wrong it could end in a disaster and ruin the whole idea.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:36 am
by xceptnl
Evil D wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:29 am
xceptnl wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:13 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
I would buy a thinned out Military and S30V would be perfectly acceptable for this concept. Sign me up!
This seems like a great test platform where only the grind geometry is changed allowing users and AFIs alike to make direct comparisons to the standard production model Millie.


My only concern is whether or not S30V can handle being thinner out that much. This idea is definitely more suited to some steels and less so to others. If it's done wrong it could end in a disaster and ruin the whole idea.
So the next most likely production steel might be M4 or XHP

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:38 am
by Evil D
xceptnl wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:36 am
Evil D wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:29 am
xceptnl wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:13 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
I would buy a thinned out Military and S30V would be perfectly acceptable for this concept. Sign me up!
This seems like a great test platform where only the grind geometry is changed allowing users and AFIs alike to make direct comparisons to the standard production model Millie.


My only concern is whether or not S30V can handle being thinner out that much. This idea is definitely more suited to some steels and less so to others. If it's done wrong it could end in a disaster and ruin the whole idea.
So the next most likely production steel might be M4 or XHP

I would say M4 or S110V, unless hardness changes are made to other steels but then you aren't getting a fair comparison vs the standard version of the same steel. I would assume Cruwear or Maxamet may also be doable but I have far less experience with those so I could be wrong.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:08 am
by dj moonbat
Evil D wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:29 am
xceptnl wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:13 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
I would buy a thinned out Military and S30V would be perfectly acceptable for this concept. Sign me up!
This seems like a great test platform where only the grind geometry is changed allowing users and AFIs alike to make direct comparisons to the standard production model Millie.


My only concern is whether or not S30V can handle being thinner out that much. This idea is definitely more suited to some steels and less so to others. If it's done wrong it could end in a disaster and ruin the whole idea.
I've got a first-run Chaparral, back from before they moved to CTS-XHP. That's a 2mm blade stock with a FFG, and it's possible that (it being my only knife in S30V) the geometry of that knife is responsible for my relatively dim view of that steel.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:13 am
by bearfacedkiller
My Spyderco Puukko in S30V has held up great while carving hardwood. My buddy who is not a knife afi bought a Nilakka in S30V and used it way too hard. The edge looked pretty rough but it was mostly rolls and almost no chips. My Para2 in S30V got thinned down to around 20 degrees inclusive and was used hard and the edge only rolled.

I have confidence that S30V can handle thin edges for my uses. It may not be the ideal steel for this concept but I believe it will hold up well.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:37 am
by dj moonbat
Evil D wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 5:04 am
I mentioned this in another thread already (or maybe this one I've lost track) but there are already models approaching the thickness that I'm looking for, the Mantra and Chaparral are two examples and the Caly 3 isn't bad either. It wouldn't take much to push them just a little further and the payoff would be huge.

I keep thinking a pass-around might help with some of the people who are unsure about this but I've got like $250+ into my Military so I dunno if I feel up to the risk lol.
See, this is why doing factory regrinds is such a good idea. People say "oh, you can always just get a regrind if you want that performance so bad," and that's true, but then you're talking about a significant bump in price. Why pay Spyderco to finish the knife at 4mm, then pay a third party to finish the knife again at 2? All we have to do is convince Spyderco that every once in a while, they should just finish a batch at 2.

Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:54 am
by ZrowsN1s
The mid year just dropped. What about a thinned out Rex 45 model?