AFI Performance Flash Batch

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

AFI Performance Flash Batch Yes or No?

Yes
131
90%
No
14
10%
 
Total votes: 145

mattman
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby mattman » Mon May 28, 2018 8:07 pm

tvenuto wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:53 pm
Nobody is suggesting they change the entire lineup to this. This is why a flash batch or small limited run would be a good idea. It won't appeal to everyone but it would be fun to play with. I think you're looking way off to the far end of the spectrum. You don't need to thin out a Delica so much that it snaps the blade off if you give it lateral force, and the question of how much is too much is dependent on the use since lateral force can break anything if there's enough of it. All I'm asking for are thinner blades, not so thin that they can only be used to slice tomatoes but thinner than we have now. There is quite a bit of room for improvement without making a knife outright fragile.
I’m tracking, and like I said it’s a fine idea. I just encounter my share of staples and odd tasks, and I haven’t had any issues cutting with the way they’re ground as is. And don’t misunderstand me, I’m certainly not worried about gross failures of the blade. But if I’m happy with the cutting performance as is, then thinning buys me nothing and only increases the likelihood that I lose sharpness via chipping. Just like if your knives aren’t rusting, then more corrosion resistance doesn’t buy you anything and might cost you somewhere else. Do I like that Spyderco pushes the boundaries of corrosion resistance? Yes. And I can see why others would want to push edge/grind geometry. So same team, I voted yes (just probably wouldn’t buy).
Sal has said often that they have to design for the masses... I don't think anybody is *unhappy* with current designs, quite the opposite, I'm sure, or we wouldn't be here. I would just like to see what he would present us with, if some of these constraints were lifted (with the appropriate caveats to the purchasers). It would be like getting a factory homologation special, in automotive terms.

Everybody can send out for a regrind, but that's one knife... If there were a Sprint, and everybody had a chance at the same model, there would certainly be some interesting discussions here, following releases!

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Doc Dan » Mon May 28, 2018 11:33 pm

Maybe if 600 people on this forum and on Blade committed to buy such a knife, then Spyderco could offer it as an exclusive to that group. The group could raise the money and pay for the flash batch or whatever in advance and the knives would be shipped from Spyderco when they arrived and passed QC.
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Evil D
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 4:34 am

tvenuto wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:53 pm
Nobody is suggesting they change the entire lineup to this. This is why a flash batch or small limited run would be a good idea. It won't appeal to everyone but it would be fun to play with. I think you're looking way off to the far end of the spectrum. You don't need to thin out a Delica so much that it snaps the blade off if you give it lateral force, and the question of how much is too much is dependent on the use since lateral force can break anything if there's enough of it. All I'm asking for are thinner blades, not so thin that they can only be used to slice tomatoes but thinner than we have now. There is quite a bit of room for improvement without making a knife outright fragile.
I’m tracking, and like I said it’s a fine idea. I just encounter my share of staples and odd tasks, and I haven’t had any issues cutting with the way they’re ground as is. And don’t misunderstand me, I’m certainly not worried about gross failures of the blade. But if I’m happy with the cutting performance as is, then thinning buys me nothing and only increases the likelihood that I lose sharpness via chipping. Just like if your knives aren’t rusting, then more corrosion resistance doesn’t buy you anything and might cost you somewhere else. Do I like that Spyderco pushes the boundaries of corrosion resistance? Yes. And I can see why others would want to push edge/grind geometry. So same team, I voted yes (just probably wouldn’t buy).

You aren't going to see any more chipping at .010 behind the edge than you do at 0.1 behind the edge. Your bevel and apex will remain at 30 inclusive or whatever you prefer. Having a thinner blade will only reduce drag when cutting through material. I also think you need to use a knife like this before you realize how it could benefit you, if you're happy with how a standard Delica slices you'll be blown away by how my reground Military slices.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby ThePeacent » Tue May 29, 2018 7:09 am

I'm in the camp of those that say my Spydies perform good enough (I admittedly apply lateral pressure and do rough cutting with my Salts and if they were thinner I'd doubt they'd take it :o )

but I would support this idea because this company is always wanting to innovate and change things, and is already one of the "sliciest" brands out there, seems to be the consensus :cool:

Some models, depending on their intended use and design could easily be thinned out, but base level ones (Tenacious, Delica, Endura, DF...) I think are good as they are, as I'm sure most of their buyers and users are not knife nuts or dedicated edge fanatics and do some ugly things from time to time with their folders :D

Finally, an honest question:

Wouldn't thinning out some models cause lock problems or potential weak lockups due to very little contact surface with the lock system and the blade? :confused:

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Some1 » Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 am

tvenuto wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:45 pm
Evil D wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 4:08 pm
Thinner behind the edge was what I had in mind. I paid $90 on top of the cost of my S110V Military and Manix 2, and I know I'm not the only one who would want something like this or regrinds wouldn't exist.
So slicing ability through relatively soft, consistent, and abrasive media, with low side loading, the primary blunting mechanism being abrasive wear.

I mainly asked because the OP stated an optimized geometry and heat treat, which isn't really a straightforward request. Knives blunt through several different mechanisms, and real world conditions will include some side loading of the edge.

I voted yes in the poll, mostly because I think this is an interesting thing for a knife company to do. Although in some ways spyderco has already done this to a degree. There are sabre ground delicas and there are FFG delicas, and there are other examples of knives that have had multiple blade geometries. I can see the desire to get something a bit thinner and more extreme, although I wouldn't personally be buying one. I have a wide variety of cutting tasks and want my delica to handle all of it (which they all have).
Good post, sir.

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 7:25 am

ThePeacent wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 7:09 am

Wouldn't thinning out some models cause lock problems or potential weak lockups due to very little contact surface with the lock system and the blade? :confused:

Some models would essentially be factory regrinds...or just be ground thinner from the same blade stock. You can have a 2mm thick blade made from 4mm thick stock where the lock face is still 4mm.
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tvenuto
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby tvenuto » Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am

Evil D wrote: You aren't going to see any more chipping at .010 behind the edge than you do at 0.1 behind the edge. Your bevel and apex will remain at 30 inclusive or whatever you prefer. Having a thinner blade will only reduce drag when cutting through material. I also think you need to use a knife like this before you realize how it could benefit you, if you're happy with how a standard Delica slices you'll be blown away by how my reground Military slices.
You seem to be pitching this as an unequivocal performance upgrade, which is misleading. In general terms, a thinner knife can cut less stuff without damage, but it will do so more effectively and for longer. If this wasn’t true, we’d all be carrying impossibly thin scalpel blades with a cobra hood for thumb comfort. If you see this as a direct upgrade, it’s because you’re accepting the trade off and have made a decision, conscious or not, that the likelihood of damage is not greater given the types of things YOU plan on cutting.. Implicitly accepting a trade off is not the same as it not existing, and one person’s use case or risk tolerance is not another’s.

Personally, I’ve broken down a mattress with my Delica to fit it into a dumpster. Might it have survived at a thinner grind? Maybe. Should I have used a different tool? Maybe. But it was hot as hell at the end of a long day of moving and I just wanted to get it done. I was appreciative as hell of that knife, as I carried it all day, and only noticed it when I needed it. And when I needed it, I didn’t have to search around for something that would do the job. This is the role a Delica serves for me, and whilst others might find my willingness to give up daily cutting performance (in soft, consistent materials) for durability in the most extreme and unlikely scenarios to be unnecessarily risk-averse, it’s where I fall on the continuum.

All that being said, I’m happy for Spyderco to experiment with different blade geometries, so I voted yes. Just like I’m happy for Spyderco to experiment with ultra wear resistant tool steels, even if I’m not terribly interested in them for folding pocket knives. I’m convinced that Spyderco should do it even if I’m not convinced that I should buy it.

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 9:03 am

tvenuto wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am


You seem to be pitching this as an unequivocal performance upgrade, which is misleading.


I'm simply saying it will slice better, nothing more nothing less. It won't be the go to do it all knife and it shouldn't be. That's why I said I'm not suggesting they do this across the entire lineup but instead for one small batch of knives for those of us who want them.

I think you guys are making this into much more of a debate than it needs to be.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby mattman » Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 am

Evil D wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:03 am
tvenuto wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am


You seem to be pitching this as an unequivocal performance upgrade, which is misleading.


I'm simply saying it will slice better, nothing more nothing less. It won't be the go to do it all knife and it shouldn't be. That's why I said I'm not suggesting they do this across the entire lineup but instead for one small batch of knives for those of us who want them.

I think you guys are making this into much more of a debate than it needs to be.
Agreed.
I want a "track day" Delica, to go with my "daily driver".
I think we're all aware of the compromises.

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 9:43 am

mattman wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 am
Evil D wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:03 am
tvenuto wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am


You seem to be pitching this as an unequivocal performance upgrade, which is misleading.


I'm simply saying it will slice better, nothing more nothing less. It won't be the go to do it all knife and it shouldn't be. That's why I said I'm not suggesting they do this across the entire lineup but instead for one small batch of knives for those of us who want them.

I think you guys are making this into much more of a debate than it needs to be.
Agreed.
I want a "track day" Delica, to go with my "daily driver".
I think we're all aware of the compromises.


Exactly. I figured it was common knowledge what the pros and cons are. It won't be for everyone or for every situation so I wouldn't expect it to appeal to every user but I do think people who've never used something like this should maybe reserve judgement on it until they do, I think they'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby xceptnl » Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 am

Cliff Stamp's comparison videos are a good illustration that thinner ground knives, even in steels with less edge retention, will perceivably to the user, cut longer than a thicker stock of the same steel. It's been a while since I dug through his videos but I believe it was cutting with 3 blades through hard shingle material which I would consider to be a very hardcore use of a pocket knife.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Doc Dan » Tue May 29, 2018 10:03 am

Thinner blades cut some things better, no doubt about it. But thinner blades are not the best choice for all cutting tasks, most certainly. e.g. I would never dream of cutting through a deer pelvis with my Chaparral. But, I would not hesitate to do so with my Manix 2 back lock. The right tool for the right job.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby ZrowsN1s » Tue May 29, 2018 10:34 am

xceptnl wrote: Cliff Stamp's comparison videos are a good illustration that thinner ground knives, even in steels with less edge retention, will perceivably to the user, cut longer than a thicker stock of the same steel. It's been a while since I dug through his videos but I believe it was cutting with 3 blades through hard shingle material which I would consider to be a very hardcore use of a pocket knife.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Sal liked to break down boxes with a spyderco kitchen knife. I assume the thin profile has something to do with that.
Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal :D
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Some1 » Tue May 29, 2018 10:52 am

tvenuto wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am
Evil D wrote: You aren't going to see any more chipping at .010 behind the edge than you do at 0.1 behind the edge. Your bevel and apex will remain at 30 inclusive or whatever you prefer. Having a thinner blade will only reduce drag when cutting through material. I also think you need to use a knife like this before you realize how it could benefit you, if you're happy with how a standard Delica slices you'll be blown away by how my reground Military slices.
You seem to be pitching this as an unequivocal performance upgrade, which is misleading. In general terms, a thinner knife can cut less stuff without damage, but it will do so more effectively and for longer. If this wasn’t true, we’d all be carrying impossibly thin scalpel blades with a cobra hood for thumb comfort. If you see this as a direct upgrade, it’s because you’re accepting the trade off and have made a decision, conscious or not, that the likelihood of damage is not greater given the types of things YOU plan on cutting.. Implicitly accepting a trade off is not the same as it not existing, and one person’s use case or risk tolerance is not another’s.

Personally, I’ve broken down a mattress with my Delica to fit it into a dumpster. Might it have survived at a thinner grind? Maybe. Should I have used a different tool? Maybe. But it was hot as hell at the end of a long day of moving and I just wanted to get it done. I was appreciative as hell of that knife, as I carried it all day, and only noticed it when I needed it. And when I needed it, I didn’t have to search around for something that would do the job. This is the role a Delica serves for me, and whilst others might find my willingness to give up daily cutting performance (in soft, consistent materials) for durability in the most extreme and unlikely scenarios to be unnecessarily risk-averse, it’s where I fall on the continuum.

All that being said, I’m happy for Spyderco to experiment with different blade geometries, so I voted yes. Just like I’m happy for Spyderco to experiment with ultra wear resistant tool steels, even if I’m not terribly interested in them for folding pocket knives. I’m convinced that Spyderco should do it even if I’m not convinced that I should buy it.
Another great post.

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Some1 » Tue May 29, 2018 10:57 am

Tvenuto seems to be the one coming at this from a logical, neutral perspective and doesn't seem argumentative. Others seem to be arguing simple logic which Tvenuto or anyone else could have stated or they're really just pushing an agenda which may apply only to them.

Kudos Tvenuto, if my kudos mean anything, for remaining neutral and stating what should be fairly common logic despite facing some agenda being pushed by others. I'm sure i will get flamed. I don't mean it in that manner, but some people are pushing an idea against an ideological compromise leading to the argument that doesn't need to exist.

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 11:49 am

Some1 wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:57 am
Tvenuto seems to be the one coming at this from a logical, neutral perspective and doesn't seem argumentative. Others seem to be arguing simple logic which Tvenuto or anyone else could have stated or they're really just pushing an agenda which may apply only to them.

Kudos Tvenuto, if my kudos mean anything, for remaining neutral and stating what should be fairly common logic despite facing some agenda being pushed by others. I'm sure i will get flamed. I don't mean it in that manner, but some people are pushing an idea against an ideological compromise leading to the argument that doesn't need to exist.


I certainly have an agenda, I like and want to try different things. Some people like to argue against something they have no interest in, which makes no sense to me. Don't like the idea? Don't buy it. I don't need to be told why what I like is wrong, that's completely lacking all logic. If a person is happy with what they have that's great, all I'm trying to do is share why I like and want this idea. If this makes me argumentative then I guess I missed the point of a discussion forum. It's not all about EDC pics and what-should-I-buy threads.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 11:52 am

Doc Dan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:03 am
Thinner blades cut some things better, no doubt about it. But thinner blades are not the best choice for all cutting tasks, most certainly. e.g. I would never dream of cutting through a deer pelvis with my Chaparral. But, I would not hesitate to do so with my Manix 2 back lock. The right tool for the right job.

Funny you mention the Chaparral because it and a few others are already close to the thickness I would like to see, I just want to see it on other models. The Mantra is already around 0.011 behind the edge according to the thread we had going about behind the edge thickness. You don't see people complaining about their Mantra blades snapping off or fracturing out large sections of the edge.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby mattman » Tue May 29, 2018 12:10 pm

Some1 wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:57 am
Tvenuto seems to be the one coming at this from a logical, neutral perspective and doesn't seem argumentative. Others seem to be arguing simple logic which Tvenuto or anyone else could have stated or they're really just pushing an agenda which may apply only to them.

Kudos Tvenuto, if my kudos mean anything, for remaining neutral and stating what should be fairly common logic despite facing some agenda being pushed by others. I'm sure i will get flamed. I don't mean it in that manner, but some people are pushing an idea against an ideological compromise leading to the argument that doesn't need to exist.
Tvenuto is presenting completely valid points. I don't feel he is being argumentive at all, and is presenting exactly the kind of rational discussion I expect from this forum. This is not an echo chamber, and I welcome his discourse.

Why are you trying to make this into something it isn't?

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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby Evil D » Tue May 29, 2018 12:32 pm

mattman wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:10 pm


Why are you trying to make this into something it isn't?

I know I have a lot going on in my personal life so maybe I'm a little more sensitive about things these days than I should be but it seems to me there has been a change in tone over the last year where people seem to want to argue over things that they don't seem to know anything about or even care about. I'm all for a healthy debate but it feels like some people just want to squash ideas just because they don't like them, nevermind everyone else who does. It's no wonder a lot of the regulars who posted here when I joined don't come around anymore.
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Re: AFI Performance Flash Batch

Postby mattman » Tue May 29, 2018 12:38 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:32 pm
mattman wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:10 pm


Why are you trying to make this into something it isn't?

I know I have a lot going on in my personal life so maybe I'm a little more sensitive about things these days than I should be but it seems to me there has been a change in tone over the last year where people seem to want to argue over things that they don't seem to know anything about or even care about. I'm all for a healthy debate but it feels like some people just want to squash ideas just because they don't like them, nevermind everyone else who does. It's no wonder a lot of the regulars who posted here when I joined don't come around anymore.
Ehh.. maybe it's because I recognized your "passionate" responses to tvenuto points, whereas someone who hasn't been around as long might not recognize your style of writing. I am pretty sure tvenuto took them as you intended (without malice) judging by his replies...?


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