154CM - Development, Properties, and Legacy

[zhyla]

While I wouldn't say this article is above my pay grade, steel isn't super interesting to me personally. But one thing that surprised me from the article: I had no idea how old 154CM is (let alone 52100!). How is it that it didn't become popular in knives until roughly this century?

[ZrowsN1s]

Very interesting article Larrin. Thank you for sharing.

As for the subject at hand, I have had similar experiences with 154CM to yours @Evil D @zhyla
Not so much with my 154CM Manix 2, but several of my Emerson knives gave me fits because of burrs. I am still not sure where the problem was, my skill, the steel or the asymmetric grind on the examples I owned. Either way I am hopeful that more knives will be offered in CPM154 since the Respect has broken the threshold for Spyderco. It is a far superior steel to 154CM especially at higher hardnesses.

I always had great success with Emersons and the KME sharp set up. The chisel grind also let me get much more acute angles (20 degrees instead of 40 inclusive ). I found Ernies technique of sharpening the bevel side until you raised a small burr, then flipping it over to the flat side and lightly knocking it off the very edge free hand with a few short passes, followed by a firm stropping on stiff cardboard worked perfect. Super sharp.

[Larrin]

While I wouldn't say this article is above my pay grade, steel isn't super interesting to me personally. But one thing that surprised me from the article: I had no idea how old 154CM is (let alone 52100!). How is it that it didn't become popular in knives until roughly this century?

154CM or 52100? Both have been relatively popular with knifemakers for a few decades.

[nicked.onaut]

Thanks for the thorough article, Larrin.
Plus it was a great trip down memory lane in many ways for this old-timer.

cheers,
nicked.onaut

[Tucson Tom]

As the nerdiest of all steel nerds I make my contributions where I can.

Nerd on! All ahead full. And thanks.

[Cycletroll]

Great article Larrin! Thanks!
Spent some time reading other references on the site and found "Is Blue Super Steel Actually Super?"

http://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/29/i ... ed-steels/

Makes waiting for the V-Toku2 runs even harder!

[Larrin]

Great article Larrin! Thanks!
Spent some time reading other references on the site and found "Is Blue Super Steel Actually Super?"

http://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/29/i ... ed-steels/

Makes waiting for the V-Toku2 runs even harder!

Yeah that was a good one. There isn't much information out there on tungsten-alloyed carbon steels so I attempted to put together as much as I could on them.

[Cycletroll]

Great article Larrin! Thanks!
Spent some time reading other references on the site and found "Is Blue Super Steel Actually Super?"

http://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/29/i ... ed-steels/

Makes waiting for the V-Toku2 runs even harder!

Yeah that was a good one. There isn't much information out there on tungsten-alloyed carbon steels so I attempted to put together as much as I could on them.

Thank you much for all the compilation and work. Your page is a great resource!

[Ixstala]

Love it!

I use 52100 and 440c regularly in my machine designs and it is fascinating to read some of the history surrounding them and other newer steels.

[Doc Dan]

Thank you very much for that article! I want to see more.

[dj moonbat]

So, I'd seen a few places that CPM154 is basically a whole different animal than the smelted version, and that had seemed like fanboy talk until I saw the micro photos from that article. Is that massive increase in uniformity to be found in any smelted steel that's converted to particle metallurgy, or something peculiar to 154CM's chemistry?

[Larrin]

So, I'd seen a few places that CPM154 is basically a whole different animal than the smelted version, and that had seemed like fanboy talk until I saw the micro photos from that article. Is that massive increase in uniformity to be found in any smelted steel that's converted to particle metallurgy, or something peculiar to 154CM's chemistry?

Basically any powder metallurgy steel. With conventional steels there is a large multi-ton ingot that is slowly cooled and significant segregation occurs. With powder metallurgy the liquid steel is rapidly solidified by "gas atomization" where each tiny particle of powder is its own mini-ingot. The solidification rate is orders of magnitude faster: https://youtu.be/ldP1sQnjWcc

[Phil Wilson]

HI Larrin, Excellent article. I enjoyed the history aspects as well. You cleared up the fact that 154CM was used for high temp bearings rather than turbine blades. I did not know that RWL 34 was named after Bob Loveless but now makes obvious sense. He must have used some of it but the later knives he made were mostly BG42 I think. The photo micrograph of CPM 154 really tells the story of the carbides. It looks like concrete with the hard rocks in it for wear. It explains the aggressive cutting nature of this grade when sharpened in the 400 grit range. This sample was done with the tempering at the low end you said so we probably cannot see the smaller precipitated Mo and Cr carbides even if they were even visible. Thanks for explaining the mechanism for pitting resistance role that the Moly plays. I think this is one of the best (IMHO) all around grades we work with. It is perfect for fillet, kitchen and overall general use knives. It is also very effective at the higher hardness range for utility hunters. Thanks for the insight you are providing with your articles. Takes me back to the early days of late night psyco knife babble at the Oregon show some years ago. Phil

[arty]

How does CPM154 compare to S35V for a fishing and fillet knife? Is edge retention similar or better?

[Phil Wilson]

Hi Arty, If you do a side by side edge holding comparison ( I cut 3/4 inch rope) with the exact same knives sharpened the same way you might find CPM S30V ( I don't use S35V) will do a bit better. I use both for fillet and in actual use in the field and there really is no practical difference. Phil

[Larrin]

HI Larrin, Excellent article. I enjoyed the history aspects as well. You cleared up the fact that 154CM was used for high temp bearings rather than turbine blades. I did not know that RWL 34 was named after Bob Loveless but now makes obvious sense. He must have used some of it but the later knives he made were mostly BG42 I think. The photo micrograph of CPM 154 really tells the story of the carbides. It looks like concrete with the hard rocks in it for wear. It explains the aggressive cutting nature of this grade when sharpened in the 400 grit range. This sample was done with the tempering at the low end you said so we probably cannot see the smaller precipitated Mo and Cr carbides even if they were even visible. Thanks for explaining the mechanism for pitting resistance role that the Moly plays. I think this is one of the best (IMHO) all around grades we work with. It is perfect for fillet, kitchen and overall general use knives. It is also very effective at the higher hardness range for utility hunters. Thanks for the insight you are providing with your articles. Takes me back to the early days of late night psyco knife babble at the Oregon show some years ago. Phil

Thanks, Phil. I always enjoy our conversations about steel.

[GarageBoy]

I did notice that Spyderco never really used 154CM much (I think just the hollow grind manix, and the ATS 34 spydercos), even when Benchmade, Microtech, and Emerson basically built their entire line ups on the stuff.

Is there any particular property of the steel that stands out?

[RamZar]

Back around 2004 the popular steels were 154CM, N690, ATS-34 and VG-10. CPM-S30V made powdered stainless steels popular around 2005 and I remember getting a Spyderco Military in that “super-steel”.

Larrin’s New Book has a whole chapter on “Bob Loveless and 154CM”.

[Manixguy@1994]

I remember reading an article with Loveless years ago, brought some great memories when I was getting to know different steels . Great read , thank you . MG2

[dull&blunt]

I did notice that Spyderco never really used 154CM much (I think just the hollow grind manix, and the ATS 34 spydercos), even when Benchmade, Microtech, and Emerson basically built their entire line ups on the stuff.

Is there any particular property of the steel that stands out?

I'm guessing that's because hey were using more VG10 back at that time. The good Dr's work shows VG10 is a lil tougher and more stain resistant than 154CM while matching it's wear resistance. I wouldn't be surprised if Spyderco also discovered this during their in-house testing back then.