As I said, draw your own conclusions and balance them against your own experience. The micrographs tell a story, but what is the correct interpretation? How much impact does it have in real life?
Real life, I would say ZERO.
All of those steels can an will take an edge way beyond the point that anyone can do by hand or with a guided system.
Goes to the overthinking aspect of it all.
Sharpness is the actual apex thickness, that isn't theory, that is fact, the smaller the apex is the sharper the edge will be all the way down to atom level. But then that's way beyond what humans can actually do.
It wasn't a question of whether different (non-diamond) abrasives can get an edge to a high sharpness. They clearly can. The question was if the potential loss of carbides at the apex (as shown in the micrographs, actual data) makes a difference in the real world. Your experience says no. That may or may not be everyone's experience, which is why I brought it up.
All comes down to sharpening talent in the end, as I said that matters more than anything else.
That loss of carbides in the real world is a myth as those micrographics show things way beyond what people are capable of realisticly.
A lot of it is in the effort to push diamonds also so take it with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Ankerson on Wed May 09, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
The recent thread on "what steel takes the keenest" edge had some interesting comments on sharpening steels with lots of vanadium carbides. In particular, "Bodog" said:
"If the carbides are harder than the sharpening media then you'll only plow the carbides and cut the matrix of the steel. If there is only a steel matrix, meaning no or almost no carbides or you're sharpening is so unrefined that you don't care about sharpening the carbides, then you only need sharpening media harder than the steel matrix itself."
A lot more was said, including the statement that Vanadium Carbides are so hard that you may not actually cut them with anything but diamond or CBN.
So I am thinking about this and my own sharpening equipment -- which at this point is the sharpmaker. So my question is, given the above, would it be true that I am limited in my ability to sharpen high vanadium steels such as say S110V with just the ceramic rods in the sharpmaker? This is no joking matter since it may push me over the edge towards spending money and purchasing a more sophisticated sharpening system like the Edge Pro or one of its brothers.
Note that I don't take this to mean that the ceramics in the sharpmaker cannot sharpen these high vanadium steels. I just suspect that equipment that uses finer CBN or diamond abrasives may produce an edge on these steels that I have yet to see. Or maybe I am hoping for too much.
Tom, personally i think getting something like the edge pro is worth it to rebevel knives. Touching up an edge with a microbevel now and then is much more easily accomplished with something like a sharpmaker.
In the end most any quality abrasive will work and it's not so much about the abrasive as what it is about what you're trying to do and with what.
I think the sharpmaker is great for touching up an edge. I'll be damned if i sit there for hours and hours and likely days and days concentrating on keeping a knife straight up and down while reprofiling it, especially high wear resistant steels. To each his own though.
Spyderco's ceramic stones will cut pretty much any steel. Whether you want to spend the time necessary with them or not is your choice. Some other options would probably be quicker depending on what you're trying to do.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.
Again, a refined edge is not the question. The question is whether the potential loss of carbides at the apex makes a difference in performance, not sharpness - how long that refined edge lasts. I am not arguing either way. I am asking the question.
Yes, the micrographs show things well beyond what most (or all) can tell, but nonetheless they show it happening.
Last edited by Chumango on Wed May 09, 2018 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Again, a refined edge is not the question. The question is whether the potential loss of carbides at the apex makes a difference in performance, not sharpness - how long that refined edge lasts. I am not arguing either way. I am asking the question.
The loss of carbides is a myth.
It was started by the diamond abrasive people to sell product.
Last edited by Ankerson on Wed May 09, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Again, a refined edge is not the question. The question is whether the potential loss of carbides at the apex makes a difference in performance, not sharpness - how long that refined edge lasts. I am not arguing either way. I am asking the question.
The loss of carbides is a myth.
So those pictures are not real? There is a difference between too small an effect to notice and not actually there.
Again, a refined edge is not the question. The question is whether the potential loss of carbides at the apex makes a difference in performance, not sharpness - how long that refined edge lasts. I am not arguing either way. I am asking the question.
The loss of carbides is a myth.
It's not a myth but i don't believe it's worth worrying about with PM steels.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.
Again, a refined edge is not the question. The question is whether the potential loss of carbides at the apex makes a difference in performance, not sharpness - how long that refined edge lasts. I am not arguing either way. I am asking the question.
The loss of carbides is a myth.
So those pictures are not real? There is a difference between too small an effect to notice and not actually there.
Again, a refined edge is not the question. The question is whether the potential loss of carbides at the apex makes a difference in performance, not sharpness - how long that refined edge lasts. I am not arguing either way. I am asking the question.
The loss of carbides is a myth.
It's not a myth but i don't believe it's worth worrying about with PM steels.
Yeah, exactly.
Marketing by the diamond abrasive people to push their products.
Doesn't matter is different from myth. The pictures, unless doctored by multiple people, show it to be real. The doesn't matter part is what matters to me and others. An interesting observation by those who took the pictures, but in the end if it makes no difference on the scale of everyday experience then it is only an academic exercise.
Doesn't matter is different from myth. The pictures, unless doctored by multiple people, show it to be real. The doesn't matter part is what matters to me and others. An interesting observation by those who took the pictures, but in the end if it makes no difference on the scale of everyday experience then it is only an academic exercise.
Academic is exactly right.
Marketing is a better term because the information is useless in the end.
And it gets blown way out of proportion because most have no idea what they are looking at.
It's down at a level that nobody can do anything about one way or another.
There are performance gains to be had but not really with the steel.
With CPM D2 or PSF-27 yes.
But then they are PM steels.
Talking about having an abrasive that works, doesn't dish, and is normally made with exact measurements. Don't need to lap. Steel chemistry doesn't matter, steel hardness doesn't matter at all. Relatively inexpensive in the sharpening stone world. Don't need to soak, don't really need to splash. Just don't push too hard.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.
There are performance gains to be had but not really with the steel.
With CPM D2 or PSF-27 yes.
But then they are PM steels.
Talking about having an abrasive that works, doesn't dish, and is normally made with exact measurements. Don't need to lap. Steel chemistry doesn't matter, steel hardness doesn't matter at all. Relatively inexpensive in the sharpening stone world. Don't need to soak, don't really need to splash. Just don't push too hard.
They do wear out however and depending on the product the diamonds come loose over time.
There are performance gains to be had but not really with the steel.
With CPM D2 or PSF-27 yes.
But then they are PM steels.
Talking about having an abrasive that works, doesn't dish, and is normally made with exact measurements. Don't need to lap. Steel chemistry doesn't matter, steel hardness doesn't matter at all. Relatively inexpensive in the sharpening stone world. Don't need to soak, don't really need to splash. Just don't push too hard.
They do wear out however and depending on the product the diamonds come loose over time.
True. Pros and cons
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.
I think calling carbide tear out a myth for the 11th time got the point across, lol. I use diamond because I can sharpen s110v in less than a minute (unless i strop). Most people seem to think that s110v is very hard to sharpen. I have never thought so, and I attribute this to using diamond, so I'll always recommend it. It also seems to leave a slightly more bitey edge (which is what I go for with s110v), just going by feel.
There are performance gains to be had but not really with the steel.
With CPM D2 or PSF-27 yes.
But then they are PM steels.
Talking about having an abrasive that works, doesn't dish, and is normally made with exact measurements. Don't need to lap. Steel chemistry doesn't matter, steel hardness doesn't matter at all. Relatively inexpensive in the sharpening stone world. Don't need to soak, don't really need to splash. Just don't push too hard.
They do wear out however and depending on the product the diamonds come loose over time.
You're an excellent sharpener Jim, but I disagree, there is a new animal of super abrasive CBN and Diamond products available and more coming later this year utilizing very Hard Metallic, Resin And Vitrified bonds to keep the grains in place and improve cutting speed, bevel finish, reduced dishing, and crisper apexes.
I'm not saying that you can't get s110v Sharp without diamonds or CBN, that's silly. But it's also silly to say that there isn't an improvement with superior abrasives
