M390

[archangel]

We have K390 used in the P4 and the Urban, one a sprint and the other a regular production model. It's got a very good reputation here, many ask for more models, and I guess there's a good chance that :spyder: will hear us. :)

M390 on the other hand has so far only been introduced to two Exclusives, if I'm not wrong (which I usually am alot). Why is that? What do you think of it? Where are the differences?

[Pelagic]

M390 is great. It's a really good all around steel that cuts aggressively and forms very little burr in sharpening. K390 has more carbon, much more molybdenum, a tiny bit more tungsten (both are pretty low), and significantly more vanadium. M390 has much more chromium, which is obvious since it's stainless. K390 will form a much bigger burr in sharpening and isn't very corrosion resistant. K390 generally has slightly better edge retention, but it depends on various factors.

20cv and 204p are almost exactly like m390 also so you could look into those steels as well if you wished.

[Rutger]

It's a European steel which makes it more expensive to use since they don't produce knives in the EU. Knife makers tend to use steels that are made locally. Lower shipping costs, taxes, import tariffs etc.

[archangel]

Thanks, very helpful. Good to know that M390 is similar to 20CV and 204p. I already appreciate both steels.

Sounds like M390 is a bit superior to K390, given that corrosion resistance is a factor of high importance for many users. Looking at the two PM2s, it does not seem to be super expensive, even though it's European. 20CV and 204p are not used much either, but the knives using those are rather pricey (and these are American steels, right?). So why aren't there more, even regular production spydies with M390? Chip in with your opinions!

[Sjucaveman]

It's a European steel which makes it more expensive to use since they don't produce knives in the EU. Knife makers tend to use steels that are made locally. Lower shipping costs, taxes, import tariffs etc.

This is the reason most likely.

[Rutger]

You'd have to get the answer from Sal to get the real insights.

I think why we don't see it much yet is because S30V is the standard for an all rounded stainless steel at this moment. M390/20CV/204P is the next step up from that, but quite a bit more expensive. I guess most buyers are price sensitive and thus the increased price makes no sense for Spyderco except for exclusive sprint runs. For most people S30V is good enough and easier to sharpen.

K390 has much more carbides (vanadium) than M390 and thus edge retention. You'd better compare it to S90V/S110V. You trade in the stainless feature for increased toughness.
M390 vs S110V is a bit less edge retention, but a bit more stainless and easier to sharpen. Spyderco offers plenty of S110V knives so M390 is not really needed. Though we'd love to see more of it.

[archangel]

Yes, other steels may offer a comparable performance at lower costs, thus lower prices. Following that rule, you would only need probably 3 - 5 different steels for all use cases. Spyderco has always offered a wide range and selection of different steels. RamZar listed 34 different steels used in recent spydies. So Spyderco does not only look at just the best high performance at reasonable cost steels. They offer much more steels than other big makers.

Again, if you look at the prices of the two M390 PM2s, they are not exorbitant (I think). If these prices are a good basis, I'd love to see a M390 Para3 or N5. Sal, Sir, are you listening? :)

[mattman]

Apparently, M390 is difficult to source consistently... ZT tried to use it in some production models, and then switched to 204p, citing availability issues.

[hackzogan]

There is a BentoBox Shop para 3 exclusive in M390 with blue G10 handles... I don't think its too expensive considering the steel. People complain about paying the shipping from BBS but whatever I still feel like the knife is worth the total cost ~$156 plus ~$15 shipping.

[Rutger]

Knife enthusiasts seem to prefer M390/20CV/204P over S110V as the default S30V upgrade, so maybe Spyderco should just switch them. But i guess they have long term contracts to buy steel and what they have in stock already. And for people that know nothing about steels S110V is easier to see as an upgrade over S30V because of the name/higher number. Having too many different steels is an inventory nightmare. So most stuff will be limited to sprint runs and it is the distributor that determines the steel in these mostly.

[archangel]

For me in Europe it's not $15 but $69 for shipping from BBS, with 100% shipping risk at my end. Plus BBS charges almost $190 for the PM2 while DLT called only $165 basically for the same knife, just with a different (nicer) handle color. I'll never buy from BBS.

If DLT would launch a Para3 with M390, I'd be going in for sure.

[mattman]

I'd be surprised if they *didn't* come with a Para 3 in m390, after the success of the other runs... But it may not be their call... Iirc, that was a distributor exclusive, that they happened to buy the entire run of. Historically, once you sign on for an exclusive, that config is reserved for you by Spyderco, so I would imagine that Red/M390/DLC, is technically JB Outmans to do with what they please.

[Bodog]

I think Spyderco has a gentleman's agreement to use carpenter and crucible steel more often like they have the agreement to use japanese steels in their japanese knives. Spyderco definitely has the ear of crucible and carpenter more than european foundries. S30V is basically a concoction due to the input of Chris Reeve, Sal, and crucible metallurgists so it's no surprise that s30v is used so often. And for a lot of people it's still considered a top tier, premium steel. And it is. But i have to say, when raw performance in the real world comes around, i find 204p family better than s30v in almost every way. But s30v is better known because so many low tier, big box companies tout it as being the best your average joe schmoe thinks s30v is a king among steels.

Like they say, s35vn is aligned more with what Reeve and Sal wanted but s30v is more well known by the average guy. To go throwing random alphanumeric identifiers at normal people who are looking for top tier steel probably scares them off and they say screw it and go with what they've heard of before, which leads back to s30v, good or bad.

[ThePeacent]

S30V is basically a concoction due to the input of Chris Reeve, Sal, and crucible metallurgists so it's no surprise that s30v is used so often. And for a lot of people it's still considered a top tier, premium steel. And it is. But i have to say, when raw performance in the real world comes around, i find 204p family better than s30v in almost every way. But s30v is better known because so many low tier, big box companies tout it as being the best your average joe schmoe thinks s30v is a king among steels.

quote from Sal back in 2003:

"It's a shame that our knives are "not your style". There are few knives in the marketplace that can compete with our performance, though we may lack in style. CPM-S30V (all of our USA made knives) and VG-10 (90% of our Japanese made knives) are pretty hard to beat on the race-track. Hard to appreciate without daily use.

sal"

:D S30V still as good as it was 15 years ago!!

[elena86]

Thanks, very helpful. Good to know that M390 is similar to 20CV and 204p. I already appreciate both steels.

Sounds like M390 is a bit superior to K390, given that corrosion resistance is a factor of high importance for many users. Looking at the two PM2s, it does not seem to be super expensive, even though it's European. 20CV and 204p are not used much either, but the knives using those are rather pricey (and these are American steels, right?). So why aren't there more, even regular production spydies with M390? Chip in with your opinions!

Sounds ? It depends ! Corrosion resistence is a non-issue for many, me included... other than that K390 is head and shoulders above M390 and I like M390 quite a bit but my K390 Urban cuts holes around my M390 PM2. I said it before...I would kill for a Millie in K390 :eek:

[RickC27]

I know for me personally, that S30V is more than enough for what I need. Keeps the edge for a while and is easy to get back once it begins to dull. Though i'm the type that will run my blades on the fine and ultra fine rods, 5-10 light swipes on each side on each stone even after minimal use after a few days. I just like have that bite against my skin when I graze my finger over the blade. So for me, as much as I'd like something like M390, K390, S110v etc...I really don't have a use for it, though I would appreciate them as a collector piece, but then I feel like I'm just wasting an amazing steel and not putting it to use! I also like the different handle scales that come with the sprint runs. But when it boils down to thinking logically for myself, S30V really gets the job done and is typically on knives that I'm more comfortable paying for, without feeling like it's a "waste" because it won't be used for anything more than simple food prep or cutting some tape.

[Sharp Guy]

Now that I have a couple knives with M390 I'm really liking it! I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more of it.

[Rutger]

I know for me personally, that S30V is more than enough for what I need. Keeps the edge for a while and is easy to get back once it begins to dull. Though i'm the type that will run my blades on the fine and ultra fine rods, 5-10 light swipes on each side on each stone even after minimal use after a few days. I just like have that bite against my skin when I graze my finger over the blade. So for me, as much as I'd like something like M390, K390, S110v etc...I really don't have a use for it, though I would appreciate them as a collector piece, but then I feel like I'm just wasting an amazing steel and not putting it to use! I also like the different handle scales that come with the sprint runs. But when it boils down to thinking logically for myself, S30V really gets the job done and is typically on knives that I'm more comfortable paying for, without feeling like it's a "waste" because it won't be used for anything more than simple food prep or cutting some tape.

But with a better steel you could have a knife that is thinner behind the edge (and thus much sharper) and still have the same edge retention as your regular S30V knife. If only the knife manufacturers would make them more. Edge geometry is just not getting enough attention from the market sadly. At least us knife enthusiasts can give our knives a regrind.

[dj moonbat]

Thanks, very helpful. Good to know that M390 is similar to 20CV and 204p. I already appreciate both steels.

Sounds like M390 is a bit superior to K390, given that corrosion resistance is a factor of high importance for many users. Looking at the two PM2s, it does not seem to be super expensive, even though it's European. 20CV and 204p are not used much either, but the knives using those are rather pricey (and these are American steels, right?). So why aren't there more, even regular production spydies with M390? Chip in with your opinions!

Sounds ? It depends ! Corrosion resistence is a non-issue for many, me included... other than that K390 is head and shoulders above M390 and I like M390 quite a bit but my K390 Urban cuts holes around my M390 PM2. I said it before...I would kill for a Millie in K390 :eek:

If one can simply disregard corrosion, it gets a lot easier to find high-performing steels. Chromium entails tradeoffs.

[sal]

I know for me personally, that S30V is more than enough for what I need. Keeps the edge for a while and is easy to get back once it begins to dull. Though i'm the type that will run my blades on the fine and ultra fine rods, 5-10 light swipes on each side on each stone even after minimal use after a few days. I just like have that bite against my skin when I graze my finger over the blade. So for me, as much as I'd like something like M390, K390, S110v etc...I really don't have a use for it, though I would appreciate them as a collector piece, but then I feel like I'm just wasting an amazing steel and not putting it to use! I also like the different handle scales that come with the sprint runs. But when it boils down to thinking logically for myself, S30V really gets the job done and is typically on knives that I'm more comfortable paying for, without feeling like it's a "waste" because it won't be used for anything more than simple food prep or cutting some tape.

But with a better steel you could have a knife that is thinner behind the edge (and thus much sharper) and still have the same edge retention as your regular S30V knife. If only the knife manufacturers would make them more. Edge geometry is just not getting enough attention from the market sadly. At least us knife enthusiasts can give our knives a regrind.

Hi Rutger,

Of course you are correct on edge geometry......but, "general" market and knife "afi's" are quite different.

sal