For technical discussion, I would like to formally introduce the "Salsa".
This is the model that Knifecenter posted a photo of without info.
The pattern is an "in house" design that we have been working on for many months. I brought a plastic pattern sample to the New York Show and a Titan handled version to the SHOT show.
The design requirements was to create an innovative, low cost folder that would serve most ELU. Legal anywhere, versatile performer. Also to offer a "higher" line version (Titan) for the "person that just has to have one", like me)
We don't have the ability to post pics on this forum yet. Really don't want to discuss the model much outside of this forum because we're not ready to discuss sales, costs or delivery issues.
Spyderco "SALSA"
Blade length............. 2.5" - 62mm
Blade thickness.......... .125" - 3mm
Cutting edge length...... 2.25" - 55mm
Overalll length.......... 5.9" - 150mm
Features:
Compression lock
integral on Titan version
nested on Aluminum versions (colors)
Half choil
Left / right Spring clip - tip up
"Cobra hood" lobe over 14mm opening hole
Full flat grind on Titan version - undecided on grinds for aluminum versions.
It's sort of a "Chunky" knife in that it's wide for it's length by many design standards. I was seeking a "handful" of knife without extreme size or weight. The blade pattern is quite wide at 1.4" (38mm) for such a short blade.
Steels are still a question??? The colored aluminum version will more than likely use an AUS 6 or 8 (lower cost).
The "Cobra Hood" (tm) permits easier one hand opening (even with gloves) and a wide thumb platform when open.
sal
Spyderco's new "Salsa"
Sal,
Sounds like a great all round knife.
.A nice little package that should not offend (but will a few because it’s a “edged weapon”<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>,
.A neat package for more dress-up applications and is
.Heavy enough for most applications.
I’m not as familiar with AUS-6, but I do like the AUS-8, and the Gin-1.
It should be out just in time.
Sounds like a great all round knife.
.A nice little package that should not offend (but will a few because it’s a “edged weapon”<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>,
.A neat package for more dress-up applications and is
.Heavy enough for most applications.
I’m not as familiar with AUS-6, but I do like the AUS-8, and the Gin-1.
It should be out just in time.
Sal,
You have what appears to be the making of the perfect super-legal knife acceptable almost everywhere for public carry, and yet with maximum performance possible in the package.
For steel choices, depending upon whether you produce the titan model here or in Japan, I'd say BG-42 or VG-10 respectively.
For the aluminum version, please don't be below AUS-8. It may not holdan edge forever, but with its "perfect" grain size it will take a sharper edge than anything else out there, and still be affordable to the non-fanatic.
You have what appears to be the making of the perfect super-legal knife acceptable almost everywhere for public carry, and yet with maximum performance possible in the package.
For steel choices, depending upon whether you produce the titan model here or in Japan, I'd say BG-42 or VG-10 respectively.
For the aluminum version, please don't be below AUS-8. It may not holdan edge forever, but with its "perfect" grain size it will take a sharper edge than anything else out there, and still be affordable to the non-fanatic.
Sal,
I agree with Carlos on the steel choice for the Ti version of the Salsa. I would love to see it in BG-42, but VG-10 is also excellent.
Would using ATS-55 in the Al version raise the cost to high? It just seems to be a better performer than the AUS6 in my experience, although that experience is limited. I also prefer it a bit to AUS8, but I don't think I have ever had AUS8 in a folder, only in fixed blades, so I can't make a decent comparison there.
I think the size sounds excellent. I just hope that a Ti version will be accepted among the sheeple, they sometimes prefer "pretty" as well as small. Would it be possible to do an anodized Ti handle to give it a bit of color?
I agree with Carlos on the steel choice for the Ti version of the Salsa. I would love to see it in BG-42, but VG-10 is also excellent.
Would using ATS-55 in the Al version raise the cost to high? It just seems to be a better performer than the AUS6 in my experience, although that experience is limited. I also prefer it a bit to AUS8, but I don't think I have ever had AUS8 in a folder, only in fixed blades, so I can't make a decent comparison there.
I think the size sounds excellent. I just hope that a Ti version will be accepted among the sheeple, they sometimes prefer "pretty" as well as small. Would it be possible to do an anodized Ti handle to give it a bit of color?
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Joel McNamara
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Very nice Sal. Can't wait for this one. My only comment is give the choil enough depth or texture so a finger won't slide on to the blade during defensive use.
I like the additional handle length compared to a Dragonfly. Gives it more butt striking potential while unopened. I assume you'll go with the semi-pointed butt shown in the Knifecenter spy photo?
Will a lanyard hole be present?
The Cobra Hood does seem like a natural thumb platform for a saber grip. Will there be any texture on top of it to avoid thumb movement?
AUS-8 is fine for the lower price model, but I would like to see a flat grind. I don't know if the grind is an ELU perception or cost issue.
The "chunky" blade to handle ratio does run counter to the more prevalent, narrower blades found on the market. The blade design is less threatening looking. At first I really wondered about the aesthetics. But the more I think about it, the more I think you may be on to something in terms of increased functionality. It wouldn't surprise me if you're trend setting for the industry once again.
Joel
I like the additional handle length compared to a Dragonfly. Gives it more butt striking potential while unopened. I assume you'll go with the semi-pointed butt shown in the Knifecenter spy photo?
Will a lanyard hole be present?
The Cobra Hood does seem like a natural thumb platform for a saber grip. Will there be any texture on top of it to avoid thumb movement?
AUS-8 is fine for the lower price model, but I would like to see a flat grind. I don't know if the grind is an ELU perception or cost issue.
The "chunky" blade to handle ratio does run counter to the more prevalent, narrower blades found on the market. The blade design is less threatening looking. At first I really wondered about the aesthetics. But the more I think about it, the more I think you may be on to something in terms of increased functionality. It wouldn't surprise me if you're trend setting for the industry once again.
Joel
This sounds like a wonderful concept and I would like to see it come into production as soon as possible. I like the idea of a wide handle and blade because a wide grip will make a shorter knife more comfortable for people with larger hands. A wide blade will also be more useful. Be careful not to make the knife super wide because then the knife will seen as weird by non-knife types. For example, it should not be as wide as the Spydercard. Finally, on the budget version, use AUS-8 or ATS-55 because I don't think that most Spyderco buyers want the lesser steels. Even first time Spyderco buyers tend to be people who are prepared to step up to a more expensive knife. Is this knife going to be made in Japan or the U.S.? If it is a U.S. model, you should consider 440V or 154 CM for the titanium model. If it is to be Japanese, please use VG-10.
Joel,
Grind choice for the Alum version comes down to general ELU preference -- the average buyer likes complex blade grinds (hollow/saber/swedge) over flat. Putting a flat grind on the Titan version is logical since its price point will likely limit sales to the high-performace buyer who knows the advantage of flat grinds. For higher volume sales, you need a grind with more "eye candy" appeal to the general ELU.
Sal,
Two ideas for the grind of the Alum version:
1. A double-hollow grind similar to that of the ATR (without altering the overall Salsa blade pattern).
2. The same high-hollow grind as the Titan proto, but with the addition of a spine swedge like Calypso Jr. Ltwt.
Edited by - Carlos on 2/1/2001 3:43:44 PM
Grind choice for the Alum version comes down to general ELU preference -- the average buyer likes complex blade grinds (hollow/saber/swedge) over flat. Putting a flat grind on the Titan version is logical since its price point will likely limit sales to the high-performace buyer who knows the advantage of flat grinds. For higher volume sales, you need a grind with more "eye candy" appeal to the general ELU.
Sal,
Two ideas for the grind of the Alum version:
1. A double-hollow grind similar to that of the ATR (without altering the overall Salsa blade pattern).
2. The same high-hollow grind as the Titan proto, but with the addition of a spine swedge like Calypso Jr. Ltwt.
Edited by - Carlos on 2/1/2001 3:43:44 PM
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Joel McNamara
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
My one question regarding ELU preference for more complex grinds. Didn't the original Dragonfly have a hollow grind, which was then switched over to flat? If that was the case, and I'm not completely spacing out, ELU reaction couldn't have been that negative, as the Dragonfly is still a top seller.
I'm just wondering out loud if there is a different customer profile and purchasing criteria for those ELUs interested in sub 3-inch blade models.
Joel
I'm just wondering out loud if there is a different customer profile and purchasing criteria for those ELUs interested in sub 3-inch blade models.
Joel
Hi Joel,
The switch may reflect Sal's growing personal preference for flat grinds as also shown with the G10 Police and the Military. The complex grind phenomenon applies to all sizes (look at most other knife manuacturers) -- not just under 3" blades. Consider that the Native was designed with mass appeal in mind. I'll see if I can find a quote.
The switch may reflect Sal's growing personal preference for flat grinds as also shown with the G10 Police and the Military. The complex grind phenomenon applies to all sizes (look at most other knife manuacturers) -- not just under 3" blades. Consider that the Native was designed with mass appeal in mind. I'll see if I can find a quote.
Okay I found a couple. Evidently it is not a rule set in stone, but rather the general trend. Two quotes by Sal related to the subject:
"As a knife designer (albeit specialty knives), It is my obligation to design knives that the ELU can appreciate and enjoy. The flat ground vs hollow ground arguments have been around longer than Spyderco and will continue for some time. And for all of the reasons that Joe mentioned. The "general" public seems to prefer hollow ground blades. Probably more because of the appearance than the peformance. Modern machinery and modern skills can make some pretty sexy grind lines. These are absent in the flat ground blade, unless a swedge is added...From the performance standpoint overall, my personal preference is for the flat ground from the edge to spine. No visible grind lines, no swedge if strength is a factor, like the Military, or a small swedge where heavy duty is not a major factor, such as in the Dragonfly, Calypso & Jr. An exception is the Rescue/Mariner models. These I feel will be used for prying and a hollow grind allows me to keep the spine at full thickness all the way out to the tip. Pretty hard to break a tip on a Spyderco Rescue..."
"The Native design was the result of a design assignment. There were a set of parameters, one of which would be to appeal to a large number of knife users. As opposed to a design like the Military, which was more specific in the problems it had to solve....In a design like the Native, much attention is paid to size and appearance in addition to performance and ergonomics..."
"As a knife designer (albeit specialty knives), It is my obligation to design knives that the ELU can appreciate and enjoy. The flat ground vs hollow ground arguments have been around longer than Spyderco and will continue for some time. And for all of the reasons that Joe mentioned. The "general" public seems to prefer hollow ground blades. Probably more because of the appearance than the peformance. Modern machinery and modern skills can make some pretty sexy grind lines. These are absent in the flat ground blade, unless a swedge is added...From the performance standpoint overall, my personal preference is for the flat ground from the edge to spine. No visible grind lines, no swedge if strength is a factor, like the Military, or a small swedge where heavy duty is not a major factor, such as in the Dragonfly, Calypso & Jr. An exception is the Rescue/Mariner models. These I feel will be used for prying and a hollow grind allows me to keep the spine at full thickness all the way out to the tip. Pretty hard to break a tip on a Spyderco Rescue..."
"The Native design was the result of a design assignment. There were a set of parameters, one of which would be to appeal to a large number of knife users. As opposed to a design like the Military, which was more specific in the problems it had to solve....In a design like the Native, much attention is paid to size and appearance in addition to performance and ergonomics..."
Hi Joel. Good point and a source of early confusion for me. We were making changes on the mold of the Dragonfly handle and a change in the Opening hole location (5mm change).
I really didn't like the appearance of the hollow grind on the early dragonfly + I felt that a wide blade like the Dragonfly would benefit performance wise from an edge to spine flat grind and I wanted to make an obvious appearance change to easily show that it was a "different" variation.
Thanx for the research and input Carlos.
Frankly my opinions on grinds were greatly influenced by the "custom guys", especially the ABS guys.
Hollow grinds do have some advantages in some areas and flats in others. Hamaguri is nice, but difficult for most to understand and maintain.
I'm sorry that we do ot yet have the ability to post pics yet. When we can, some of these discussions will be more fruitful.
What I have in mind for the Salsa AL is a fairly wide round grind line to the point, with a partial swedge dipping into and out of the spine. both flat. This will provide a combination of interesting lines as well as a strong tip capable of mild abuse from the less educated ELU.
sal
I really didn't like the appearance of the hollow grind on the early dragonfly + I felt that a wide blade like the Dragonfly would benefit performance wise from an edge to spine flat grind and I wanted to make an obvious appearance change to easily show that it was a "different" variation.
Thanx for the research and input Carlos.
Frankly my opinions on grinds were greatly influenced by the "custom guys", especially the ABS guys.
Hollow grinds do have some advantages in some areas and flats in others. Hamaguri is nice, but difficult for most to understand and maintain.
I'm sorry that we do ot yet have the ability to post pics yet. When we can, some of these discussions will be more fruitful.
What I have in mind for the Salsa AL is a fairly wide round grind line to the point, with a partial swedge dipping into and out of the spine. both flat. This will provide a combination of interesting lines as well as a strong tip capable of mild abuse from the less educated ELU.
sal
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sam the man..
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- Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
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sam the man..
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
Thanks Sal, I just wanted a general idea. It sounds like the Titan version may end up with a very limited production vs the AL?
Joel brought up the question of a textured thumb-shelf. Personally I have come to prefer a smooth thumb-shelf, but I am curious as to whether a knife can have a Cobra Hood and a textured thumb-shelf.
Joel brought up the question of a textured thumb-shelf. Personally I have come to prefer a smooth thumb-shelf, but I am curious as to whether a knife can have a Cobra Hood and a textured thumb-shelf.
I am dredging up this thread since 4 months have passed and this is one that I am looking forward to using (Ti version). Any progress?
After using the steel Dragonfly for 6 months now as my EDC, I still wish it was a liner lock for better one-hand close.
I also second the previous reference to the Calypso Jr. handle. I find it to be perfect for my (medium hand) size. Also looking forward to a larger "hole".
I am holding off on the Mouse in anticipation of the Salsa, so I haven't tested that one.
After using the steel Dragonfly for 6 months now as my EDC, I still wish it was a liner lock for better one-hand close.
I also second the previous reference to the Calypso Jr. handle. I find it to be perfect for my (medium hand) size. Also looking forward to a larger "hole".
I am holding off on the Mouse in anticipation of the Salsa, so I haven't tested that one.