Value Line RIL?

[ugaarguy]

Had an original for about an hour. Lock up was so weak I could break it by whacking the blade on my thigh. Heavy. So-so steel. Returned it same day. The new ones cost about as much as a Dragonfly or Ambitious. Why would I buy another?

Well, vs. Ambitious: The G10 Pilar is lighter, uses the same blade steel, is $3 less, the finger choil gives my hands a 4 finger grip (I can only get 3 on the ambitious), the stainless steel frame on the clip side won't tear up my pockets like G10. I've had an expensive liner lock fail me, so I'll take the greater margin of error that the thick lock bar of a frame lock provides.

Vs. the Dragonfly: After the price increase the base DF is $62, or nearly 2x the price of the G10 Pilar. I still prefer a frame lock to a back lock. The DF2 wins in every other category, but it's should since it's in a higher price bracket. At nearly double the price, I didn't consider the DF2 as a competitor.

The Byrd Crow with it's finger choil and much better BD1 blade steel for $45 has been very tempting. Perhaps making the Crow as a frame lock would give buyers like me and Daveho a low cost Spyderco option to go with our Taichung frame locks.

[Daveho]

Did any of you guys pick up the CRKT Pilar?
From memory it’s like 2.5” of edge but weighs like 4oz, while that’s not heavy by any means it’s a trade off that doesn't need to happen.

Had an original for about an hour. Lock up was so weak I could break it by whacking the blade on my thigh. Heavy. So-so steel. Returned it same day. The new ones cost about as much as a Dragonfly or Ambitious. Why would I buy another?

I wasn’t suggesting we all buy Pilars but rather using it as an example of a small frame lock that is too heavy for what it is.
Unfortunately that brand isn’t known for its quality execution of good designs however that knife was very successful and it does illustrate that a cheap frame lock is something people want.
I would also point out as posted above that the dragonfly and the ambitious against the Pilar isn’t really comparing apples to apples in this context however given the complexity of assembly I’d say the Pilar is better value for money than the Dragonfly, it’s just the steel and QC that can let the little CRKT down.

[Daveho]

Had an original for about an hour. Lock up was so weak I could break it by whacking the blade on my thigh. Heavy. So-so steel. Returned it same day. The new ones cost about as much as a Dragonfly or Ambitious. Why would I buy another?

Well, vs. Ambitious: The G10 Pilar is lighter, uses the same blade steel, is $3 less, the finger choil gives my hands a 4 finger grip (I can only get 3 on the ambitious), the stainless steel frame on the clip side won't tear up my pockets like G10. I've had an expensive liner lock fail me, so I'll take the greater margin of error that the thick lock bar of a frame lock provides.

Vs. the Dragonfly: After the price increase the base DF is $62, or nearly 2x the price of the G10 Pilar. I still prefer a frame lock to a back lock. The DF2 wins in every other category, but it's should since it's in a higher price bracket. At nearly double the price, I didn't consider the DF2 as a competitor.

The Byrd Crow with it's finger choil and much better BD1 blade steel for $45 has been very tempting. Perhaps making the Crow as a frame lock would give buyers like me and Daveho a low cost Spyderco option to go with our Taichung frame locks.

As there is no like button here I have to do this manually.

LIKE

Exactly right.

[tvenuto]

Spyderco actually has done a steel frame lock: the PPT. There is a partial scale over it, so they called it a liner lock, but it is the size of a frame lock. As people have mentioned, being steel makes the thing very heavy.

[ugaarguy]

Spyderco actually has done a steel frame lock: the PPT. There is a partial scale over it, so they called it a liner lock, but it is the size of a frame lock. As people have mentioned, being steel makes the thing very heavy.

I'm familiar with the PPT. It's only about an ounce and a half heavier than the Spydiechef, and (as you note) the PPT has a pretty large G10 scale over the frame lock side. the PPT also has a slightly thicker blade than the chef's slightly longer blade. The PPT actually weighs a little less than my slightly larger Ti and CF frame lock ZT 0562, so it's not that heavy for its size. All that aside, the PPT is a $200+ knife, so it's not exactly a value model.

[Daveho]

Spyderco actually has done a steel frame lock: the PPT. There is a partial scale over it, so they called it a liner lock, but it is the size of a frame lock. As people have mentioned, being steel makes the thing very heavy.

Quite right, forgot about that!
Although IIRC it didn’t fall so much in the budget category.
I remember thinking that design was very cool, really opens up the mind to some fun ideas IMhO.

[ugaarguy]

There's currently a sprint run of the PPT in stock if either of you gents wants one. $227 isn't too bad for S90V and 3D machined CF scales.

[Daveho]

There's currently a sprint run of the PPT in stock if either of you gents wants one. $227 isn't too bad for S90V and 3D machined CF scales.

I have 3 knives in the mail and 2 on order.. I may need to move a couple on first :)

[MichaelScott]

I suspect the popularity of the Pilar derives mainly from the Voxnaes design at a cheap price. I am certainly not saying that’s a bad thing. I bought one chiefly for those reasons. But like many impulsive decisions it didn’t work out for me. Fragile lock up, which the vendor admitted was a problem with a certain batch, heavy for its size, small and thick grind. I do like the design but feel it deserves a better expression.

[sal]

Hi Ugaarguy,

Steel R.I.L.'s, as mentioned re often heavy. We've not made very many large ones. We made one of the byrds as a R.I.L. in the early days, but it failed in the marketplace. What did you have in mind?

Michael, FYI, Chris Reeve created the "Reeve Integral Lock", which he trademarked. We referred to it as a "Reeve Integral Lock" or R.I.L. to honor his trademark. Just as Michael Walker created the Linerlock, which he also trademarked and we generally refer to it as a Walker Linerlock for the same reason.
fYI we also paid Michael Walker royalties on all of the Linerlocks that we made for a period of 17 years as though he had actually patented the lock (which he didn't).

When the market decided to "use" their locks, they referred to them as "Side-locks" and "Frame-locks" to avoid using the trademarked name.

sal

[SG89]

Hey OP, I know you are asking about value line RIL but the discontinued Foundry is a steel RIL and a wonderful knife

[Daveho]

Hey OP, I know you are asking about value line RIL but the discontinued Foundry is a steel RIL and a wonderful knife

That’s a great suggestion and a great looking knife.
Haven’t seen it poping up a lot in chat though, no idea why as it looks amazing!

[tvenuto]

Quite right, forgot about that!
Although IIRC it didn’t fall so much in the budget category.
I remember thinking that design was very cool, really opens up the mind to some fun ideas IMhO.

It certainly wasn’t budget, I was just thinking of a steel RIL that Spyderco had done in the past for comparison purposes.

[anagarika]

IIRC, GB1 was referred to by some as frame lock in disguise
Look how heavy it is and lots of people don’t like the weight.
I love mine though (solid liner).

[ugaarguy]

Hi Ugaarguy,

Steel R.I.L.'s, as mentioned re often heavy. We've not made very many large ones. We made one of the byrds as a R.I.L. in the early days, but it failed in the marketplace. What did you have in mind?

...

sal

Hi Sal, thanks for stopping in and asking me. The ESEE Avispa with 3.5" blade isn't too heavy at 4.5 oz, and it's a low cost steel frame lock / RIL. The CRKT Voxnaes designed Pilar, already discussed in some detail in this thread, reminds me quite a bit of your "Little Big Knife" designs. I've also already noted several reasons that the RIL is my preferred lock type.

Visiting urban areas like Chicago where even legal knives still get wrongly confiscated at times (thankfully hasn't happened to me personally) are a situation where a quality low cost folder is desirable for me. So, something like a Cat, Chicago, or Byrd Raven but in a RIL is what I most desire. In other words, a value priced RIL with a broadly legal blade length, and little big knife ergos would be wonderful.Also, just having Spyderco ergos and design language in a few RIL models at value prices so I can scratch the new knife itch between more expensive purchases would be nice.

[Bill1170]

A stainless RIL with a <2.5” blade seems like a good size to aim for. The small size helps with the weight issue. The jewel-like qualities of an all metal folder seem better suited to a small gentleman’s knife than to a larger pattern. But Sal says it failed in the market when they tried it, so I can’t fault Spyderco for giving it a pass.

[ugaarguy]

A stainless RIL with a <2.5” blade seems like a good size to aim for. The small size helps with the weight issue. The jewel-like qualities of an all metal folder seem better suited to a small gentleman’s knife than to a larger pattern. But Sal says it failed in the market when they tried it, so I can’t fault Spyderco for giving it a pass.

I'm actually hoping for a RIL that has a synthetic scale opposite the lock side, both for weight savings and increased grip. I'd like to at least see pictures of this RIL that was made early in the Byrd line, and know what years it was offered. The aesthetics may have been off, or not. There's also been a decent, if not large, increase in low cost frame locks offered on the market in the last several years. Those could all be factors in that model's lack of success. I'm glad that Sal is so open to feedback from customers on what few things Spyderco doesn't offer that we'd like to buy from them.

[Daveho]

Love to see a lil native in this configuration actually, I appreciate its not really a budget small knife but that would be rad.

[sal]

Hey Ugaarguy,

So explain to me why you prefer R.I.L. over a Walker Linerlock?

sal

[BrianMcCord]

I have had several Stainless steel RIL knives (not spyderco) that have broken from just opening and closing. Like bending a paper clip back and forth, eventually it will snap...in my experience. For this reason, I only buy titanium RIL knives.

Anyone else have this issue? The one that stands out the most is Kershaw Strobe...I broke two of them within a week of owning both. I thought the first was a lemon, but ended up coming to the conclusion that steel makes a poor RIL/frame lock.