Toughest stainless steel ?

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steelcity16
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#121

Post by steelcity16 »

Larrin wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:29 am
thewoodpecker wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:25 am
I am curious. Why does CPM S35VN have such low toughness if the carbide content is lower than CPM-154/Elmax/M390/etc.?
Vanax and S35VN have similar carbide/nitride volume and look similar. M390 appears to outperform relative to those. Why CPM-154 does so much better I don’t know. Hoping to do some more samples sometime in the future.

I am surprised to hear that about Vanax. I feel like Xplorer has said he regards it much higher it the toughness category in his use on the custom knives he makes. Hopefully he will chime in with his opinion on the accuracy of that chart relative to his extensive experience making blades.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#122

Post by Woodpuppy »

That chart is whetting my appetite for the upcoming Urban in AEB-L!
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steelcity16
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#123

Post by steelcity16 »

Ok, well we have AEB-L coming out in the Urban soon, so the real question is when are we going to see a folder in CPM-154??
:bug-white-red CRU-CARTA THE SEKI MODELS! :bug-white-red AND BRING US THE DODO-FLY! :bug-white-red
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#124

Post by steelcity16 »

Woodpuppy wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:05 pm
That chart is whetting my appetite for the upcoming Urban in AEB-L!

I have a feeling this chart just made the AEB-L Urban the hottest ticket sprint of the year. Good luck getting one!!
:bug-white-red CRU-CARTA THE SEKI MODELS! :bug-white-red AND BRING US THE DODO-FLY! :bug-white-red
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#125

Post by JD Spydo »

bdblue wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:42 pm
JD Spydo wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:18 am
Not sure how they measure the toughness factors in steel. But I can say by using and by experience that the old Crucible 440V is what I would personally call "tough". It is not only a great steel for Spyderedges but it's also a monster to sharpen. Of all the Spyders I've had with 440V I've never once had any chipping problems or cracks at all.

It's an interesting topic because I've noticed the blade steels that seem to be great for Spyderedges have more of a toughness factor than being super on the Rockwell scale. There are dozens of examples. Again I don't know how metallurgists measure toughness.
Steel toughness is measured with the Charpy V-notch test and IIRC the test results are given in ft-pounds.

In knife terms the overall toughness is a function of the steel, the heat treat and even to some extent the shape. This makes it very difficult to predict toughness of a knife. Of course the material itself could be tested but it still depends on heat treat.

Another IIRC- I read a test of an outdoor knife from a mundane 440 alloy and it turned out to be very tough. I'm guessing that some of the 440 variations can be tough, especially if kept to a lower hardness level.

I've also read that Elmax is one of the tougher of the more modern steels.
We had one of the "Charpy" units where I used to work and we also had a Rockwell hardness tester as well as a tool to test tensile strength and ductility in many cases. I wish I still had access to those tools and I've thought about enrolling in a local community college that has a metallurgy/Machine tool program just so I'll have access to those tools again.

It seems like I also remember the old GIN-1 that Spyderco used to make knife blades with that had some toughness aspects to it. It sure was a great steel for serrations/Spyderedges. And I've noticed that many of the steels I've observed that make up good steel for Spyderedges have a toughness aspect to them.
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Woodpuppy
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#126

Post by Woodpuppy »

steelcity16 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:07 pm
Woodpuppy wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:05 pm
That chart is whetting my appetite for the upcoming Urban in AEB-L!

I have a feeling this chart just made the AEB-L Urban the hottest ticket sprint of the year. Good luck getting one!!
Agreed. Looking back I can’t believe I got in on the satin bhq M4 para3, or the rex45. I think the only reason I was able to get the latest cruwear para3 is because it has smooth g10. Everything since has crashed websites or sold out in literally minutes!! I’m gonna have to be on alert to catch the urban. The fact that is a slippie means I might have a chance!
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#127

Post by Larrin »

steelcity16 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:59 pm
I am surprised to hear that about Vanax. I feel like Xplorer has said he regards it much higher it the toughness category in his use on the custom knives he makes. Hopefully he will chime in with his opinion on the accuracy of that chart relative to his extensive experience making blades.
Uddeholm doesn't rate Vanax particularly high for toughness, giving lower numbers than Vanadis 4 Extra or even Vanadis 8 (their 10V replacement). However, that doesn't mean it isn't tough enough for many knives.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#128

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Larrin wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:16 pm
Woodpuppy wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:48 pm
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:21 pm
Larrin and others: The Fallkniven and other people who are into laminated steel seem to think if you take the various super steel and laminate them, you get an even tougher end product.
Perhaps for prying or batoning, but not for edge stability.
And tips tend to break more frequently than whole blades. San-mai has its uses but it’s not a cure-all.
Thank you both. This helps.
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Xplorer
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#129

Post by Xplorer »

steelcity16 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:59 pm
Larrin wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:29 am
thewoodpecker wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:25 am
I am curious. Why does CPM S35VN have such low toughness if the carbide content is lower than CPM-154/Elmax/M390/etc.?
Vanax and S35VN have similar carbide/nitride volume and look similar. M390 appears to outperform relative to those. Why CPM-154 does so much better I don’t know. Hoping to do some more samples sometime in the future.

I am surprised to hear that about Vanax. I feel like Xplorer has said he regards it much higher it the toughness category in his use on the custom knives he makes. Hopefully he will chime in with his opinion on the accuracy of that chart relative to his extensive experience making blades.
Frankly, I'm finding I'd prefer to stay out of these conversations. My goal is to find real answers with regard to actual knife performance results, and these conversations don't necessarily lead to such conclusions for a wide variety of reasons. There are so many major factors that affect the actual results you will see in the knife you hold in your hand that the steel itself is not as important as these threads would lead one to believe. This is more true when talking about toughness than any other steel attribute. Toughness of an actual knife is far more effected by heat treat and geometry than edge retention or corrosion resistance for instance. You might be surprised to learn that while I might argue for or against one steel or another within a given narrow context...at the end of the day I will also say "meh...(shrug shoulders)...it doesn't really matter...there are a ton of great steels and I can make a knife that 99% of people would consider a superior performing blade with any of them". That's not me being arrogant...that's the reality of steel quality today and the enormous affects of geometry and heat treat when you understand how to achieve the necessary balance required for the intended application.

To answer your questions about what I have been saying about Vanax toughness...Vanax is 25% tougher than Elmax according to the data I have received directly from a metallurgist and project engineer that I have been working with directly at Uddeholm. All of the knife specific test I have performed have confirmed this to be true. It's important to keep all of these comments and results in their proper context. For instance...Vanax is unique and extremely special steel only if corrosion resistance is a high priority. If the intended application requires extreme corrosion resistance, LC200N (Z-FiNit) is the toughest, S110V is the hardest (due to the low edge retention I do not include H1..toughest..in these comparisons). Vanax provides a balance of properties that is unique in that it is harder and will hold an edge longer than LC200N and it is tougher than S110V and much, much easier to sharpen. But, take away the context that corrosion resistance is highly important and there's nothing all that special about the remaining properties. The big benefit I see in Vanax is the unique balance. It basically makes a blade that stays sharp longer than S30V/S35VN, with more toughness, easier sharpening, and it will never corrode. Perfect for a low/no maintenance EDC and also perfect for fillet and fishing knives of all sorts.

Regarding toughness again, the other PM grade stainless steels (like S35VN, S30V, M390, N690) fall just below Elmax but are so close that the toughness differences in actual knives are irrelevant. However, each of those others listed can achieve better hardness than Elmax at the compared toughness levels (this is one of the things that makes these conversations confusing and easily misleading). AEB-L is not a PM grade stainless which is why I hadn't compared it to the others in the past, but make no mistake...AEB-L is amazing steel and makes an insanely tough (the toughest) stainless blade. Why CPM154 shows up on that chart with such high toughness numbers is a mystery to everyone apparently. I've never seen any other information that would back that up. I make knives in CPM154 and I love that steel...it has a great balance of properties overall. Crucible shows CPM154 toughness as equal to S30V http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... v12010.pdf . My personal test results with actual blades have lead me to conclude that CPM154 is roughly equal in toughness to S30V / S35VN but edge holding is not as good. When I see information that is that far outside of all other available data I consider it questionable at best. I'd like to know how that result was derived, but it wouldn't change the results that I actually see in knives either way.

I would encourage anyone interested in "toughness" to think in depth about how toughness, hardness, carbide structure, material thickness and bevel angle all interact together. It is the balance of these properties that really provides the results and dialing in that mixture correctly is how you actually make a knife perform in the manner that you desire.

Best regards,
Chad
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
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Larrin
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#130

Post by Larrin »

Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 am
Why CPM154 shows up on that chart with such high toughness numbers is a mystery to everyone apparently. I've never seen any other information that would back that up. I make knives in CPM154 and I love that steel...it has a great balance of properties overall. Crucible shows CPM154 toughness as equal to S30V http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... v12010.pdf . My personal test results with actual blades have lead me to conclude that CPM154 is roughly equal in toughness to S30V / S35VN but edge holding is not as good. When I see information that is that far outside of all other available data I consider it questionable at best. I'd like to know how that result was derived, but it wouldn't change the results that I actually see in knives either way.
The datasheet just shows relative bar charts, not actual toughness testing results. The bar charts are often weird when compared with their own reported testing results. If they ever tested the toughness of CPM-154 they haven't shared that information with us.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#131

Post by Larrin »

Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 am
To answer your questions about what I have been saying about Vanax toughness...Vanax is 25% tougher than Elmax according to the data I have received directly from a metallurgist and project engineer that I have been working with directly at Uddeholm.
Sure that's in the datasheet: https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/si ... 705-e1.pdf
You can see Vanadis 4 Extra and Vanadis 8 here: https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Uddeh ... nglish.pdf
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#132

Post by Xplorer »

Larrin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:50 am
Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 am
Why CPM154 shows up on that chart with such high toughness numbers is a mystery to everyone apparently. I've never seen any other information that would back that up. I make knives in CPM154 and I love that steel...it has a great balance of properties overall. Crucible shows CPM154 toughness as equal to S30V http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... v12010.pdf . My personal test results with actual blades have lead me to conclude that CPM154 is roughly equal in toughness to S30V / S35VN but edge holding is not as good. When I see information that is that far outside of all other available data I consider it questionable at best. I'd like to know how that result was derived, but it wouldn't change the results that I actually see in knives either way.
The datasheet just shows relative bar charts, not actual toughness testing results. The bar charts are often weird when compared with their own reported testing results. If they ever tested the toughness of CPM-154 they haven't shared that information with us.
I understand. In fact, I constantly find data sheets misleading and sometimes flat out incorrect when applied to knife applications. I do my own testing however and have yet to see CPM154 stand out above S35VN in any category, so I'm seeing results that are more in line with their comparison than anything else. Is the result you posted derived from blade testing?
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#133

Post by Larrin »

Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:56 am
I understand. In fact, I constantly find data sheets misleading and sometimes flat out incorrect when applied to knife applications. I do my own testing however and have yet to see CPM154 stand out above S35VN in any category, so I'm seeing results that are more in line with their comparison than anything else. Is the result you posted derived from blade testing?
No it's from charpy testing.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#134

Post by Xplorer »

Larrin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:52 am
Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 am
To answer your questions about what I have been saying about Vanax toughness...Vanax is 25% tougher than Elmax according to the data I have received directly from a metallurgist and project engineer that I have been working with directly at Uddeholm.
Sure that's in the datasheet: https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/si ... 705-e1.pdf
You can see Vanadis 4 Extra and Vanadis 8 here: https://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Uddeh ... nglish.pdf
I'm struggling to understand the relevance of comparing Vanax to Vanadis 4E or Vanadis 8. Extreme corrosion resistance is the context with which Vanax is a highly desirable knife steel. Can you help me understand what you're trying to say when you compare these?
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#135

Post by Larrin »

Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:05 pm
I'm struggling to understand the relevance of comparing Vanax to Vanadis 4E or Vanadis 8. Extreme corrosion resistance is the context with which Vanax is a highly desirable knife steel. Can you help me understand what you're trying to say when you compare these?
Sure, Vanax has occasionally been called a "super toughness" steel, perhaps being considered a significant step up from other stainless steels. Comparing it to non-stainless tool steels with similar carbide volumes puts it in context of how much toughness is possible. I am not attempting to denigrate Vanax in any way. I am working on a steel recommendation article right now and Vanax will be on it.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#136

Post by Xplorer »

Larrin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:12 pm
Xplorer wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:05 pm
I'm struggling to understand the relevance of comparing Vanax to Vanadis 4E or Vanadis 8. Extreme corrosion resistance is the context with which Vanax is a highly desirable knife steel. Can you help me understand what you're trying to say when you compare these?
Sure, Vanax has occasionally been called a "super toughness" steel, perhaps being considered a significant step up from other stainless steels. Comparing it to non-stainless tool steels with similar carbide volumes puts it in context of how much toughness is possible. I am not attempting to denigrate Vanax in any way. I am working on a steel recommendation article right now and Vanax will be on it.
Respectfully, I worry that such a comparison can make this whole topic more confusing for people and not less confusing. There's not a single knife application that I can think of where I would be trying to decide between Vanax and either of those non-stainless tool steels. V4E is one of the steels I use for my medium sized, hard-use field knives and I know it's characteristics extremely well. In terms of knife applications those steels are in completely different worlds. What is important is how Vanax compares with the steels that one would potentially use for the same knife applications (like H1, LC200N, S110V, Elmax, M390 or S35VN for instance). The significant "step up" that Vanax offers from other stainless steels is that it is the first Nitrogen steel (nearly completely corrosion proof) that has better edge stability characteristics than the ubiquitous S30V. Until Vanax SC arrived, LC200N was the closest to achieving this remarkable feat but (as great as it is) fell just short in terms of edge retention. Now it is possible for a person to own a knife that will never corrode and not have to sacrifice edge performance or ability to sharpen when compared to their usual S30V or S35VN EDC. This is ideal for fillet knives, bird and trout knives, utility knives, EDC knives and most any knife used in or around water (especially salt water). This is a significant step up from other stainless steels IF (and only if) corrosion resistance is important for the user or the intended application.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#137

Post by Larrin »

OK I see that we are mostly talking past each other which is unfortunate. It is difficult to give sufficient context to statements in a forum like this. We will have to talk in another setting where it will be more apparent that we agree on more points than we disagree.
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#138

Post by Xplorer »

Larrin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:48 pm
OK I see that we are mostly talking past each other which is unfortunate. It is difficult to give sufficient context to statements in a forum like this. We will have to talk in another setting where it will be more apparent that we agree on more points than we disagree.
I'm sorry and disappointed to hear you think we're talking past one another. I'm genuinely trying to make sense of what's being said here. Unfortunately, this isn't the first time that I have had the impression that you get offended when I question you. I wish that wasn't the case. I want to make sure you understand where I'm coming from with my questions and concerns...I am committed to learning about and mastering the steels I work with in an effort to produce the finest knives possible. In that journey I do a LOT of costly and time consuming testing. I also do a TON of studying. One of the resources I consider particularly valuable in my research is you :) . I appreciate the work you do and the passion you have for applying your education to the knife industry. I come from a family full of aerospace engineers and rocket scientists (literally) and I'm used to all conclusions being questioned and tested. Peer review is an aspect of scientific research that leads to improved accuracy and/or increased credibility. When I question your results or conclusions, I am holding you in the same high regard that I would any respected scientist and I am expecting you to have an answer that will both add to my knowledge and simultaneously add to the credibility of your findings. If the question leads instead to further reflection and analysis of the question, the end result there should be a net positive as well. Since I don't tend to make comments when I agree I can see how there could be a perception that I am disagreeable to you. I'm sorry if I've created that perception. I read everything you post and I'm proud to be a patron of Knife Steel Nerds. I would estimate we are in agreement 99% of the time. Just so you know, even though I may send you challenging questions some times, I advocate for you when speaking to others and consider you an extremely important contributor in my quest to make the best knives possible.

When we finally meet at a knife show one day..I hope you'll let me buy you a beer (or whatever if beer is not your thing :) ).

Best regards,
Chad
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
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Re: Toughest stainless steel ?

#139

Post by Larrin »

I was not offended. :)
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