Toughest stainless steel ?

[Bill1170]

As already mentioned, stainless steels used in folders don’t need the toughness that axes and long swords need. We want a balance of toughness, edge stability, wear resistance, stain resistance, and grain refinement. Everyone has their own favorite blend of these attributes. For years M390 was my favorite. S110V is giving it a real run lately. I’m amazed at how little damage it takes and how long a good working edge lasts between sharpenings. This is a construction work knife (Manix 2 Lightweight) and it still amazes me.

Bluntcut has a Niolox chopper at mid-60’s Rockwell hardness that is amazingly tough. Of course, that has a lot to do with his heat treat protocol.

[arty]

Blade geometry and heat treatment matter a lot. I have a few Tojiro kitchen knives, including a western Deba and a Gyoto. The deba is like a thick, heavy chef's knife with a convex edge. The Gyoto has a thin blade. I use the Deba to slit lobster tails and break down raw chicken. It is used like a cleaver, and slices through raw chicken bones and the lobster tails with no edge damage. It keeps a sharp edge for a long time. I once accidentally grabbed the Gyoto and used it to slice a lobster tail, and this tore up and chipped the edge. I can go through 30 tails or more with the Deba before it needs to be sharpened, and there is no chipping. The Gyoto was a mess after 5 tails.

If you were wondering, an old 1095 butcher knife needed to be resharpened after one session with the lobster tails, but a similar blade in 5160 (Himalayan Imports) stayed sharp with no chipping in either.

People often describe kitchen knives in VG10 as chippy, but not when the knives are given proper edge geometry and hardness. My Spyderco kitchen knife in VG10 has never been chippy (Yang), but it isn't used to break down raw chicken, and it won't go through heavy bones. The Western Deba is a brute.

[tvenuto]

Bluntcut has a Niolox chopper at mid-60’s Rockwell hardness that is amazingly tough. Of course, that has a lot to do with his heat treat protocol.

This. The question, as asked, doesn't have an answer. Heat treatment will play a huge part in how tough (engineering meaning) a steel is. You can bend a steel into a U shape, then heat treat it such that it snaps in half when you drop it on the ground. Toughness, then, isn't a property that the steel possesses solely due to its composition. This is just the same as asking: "which stainless steel is harder?"

As people have mentioned above, optimal toughness is probably not the heat treatment you want for a pocketknife. A potential question could be: "Given a heat treatment for optimal wear resistance, which stainless steel would be tougher?" Now, one would do well to note that optimal wear resistance might not be the best balance of properties for a knife either, but at least that's a question with an answer. The best question for a user would be: "Given the heat treat that spyderco uses on steels X, Y, and Z, which one is tougher?"

Even then, the question might not have any practical implications if the geometries of the actual knives made of steels X, Y, and Z are different.

So, beware anyone offering a simple answer. The question doesn't have one, unfortunately. The good news is that if knives A, B, and C have adequate toughness to do anything you might do with them then it doesn't matter which one is actually tougher as the additional toughness isn't buying you anything.

So my advice is to trust that spyderco is going to (continue to) do a good job of heat treating their steels with a good balance of properties for the intended use and form factor. This is not an entreaty to limit these discussions, but rather to realize where such discussion might fall on the scale of "Practical information"------>"Esoteric navel-gazing."

(And at the risk of of belaboring, I think discussions along the full range of that scale make the forum an interesting place to visit, so please don't infer that I value one end of the scale over another.)

[Cycletroll]

As I understand it both AEB-L and Sandvik 14C28N are both quite tough for stainless.

[Deadboxhero]

Toughest stainless


420j2


You would have a hard time making that steel have a brittle failure.

Especially since it won't hold an edge worth a ****

A dull knife is a tough knife :D

[bdblue]

"Given a heat treatment for optimal wear resistance, which stainless steel would be tougher?"

There is always a tradeoff in tool steels- wear resistance vs. toughness. You increase one and decrease the other. Different steel alloys and heat treats will move the tradeoff point back and forth.

[Donut]

:D
https://youtu.be/-MxCDbAW638

Do you know that's a legitimate spyderco military in s30v with bright orange handles?

I used to have an Orange Military, but I traded it away because the guy I traded with valued it at higher than the value of a normal Military and I don't think colors (regardless of how limited edition they are) affect the value of a knife.

[Bodog]

There's a very obvious reason why bladesports makers won't use s30v or s110v but they've swarmed m4 and vanadis 4e. Yes, there are intangibles involved, but with blade sports the primary goal is to cut a variety of things while keeping a sharp edge. Most people don't cut 20 miles of cardboard or rope but they'll cut 20 different materials before wanting to sharpen. That's why there's never been a rope or cardboard cutting competition in the US BUT there is a competition that tests edges on a variety of materials in a variety of cutting methods and it's not all simply brute force or cutting soft, abrasive materials.

And there's still a reason Spyderco uses charpy tests. I doubt it is just to raise prices on their knives. I guess q-fog testing is absolutely pointless, too? No. It gives a qualitative starting point with real world use in demanding, real world environments being the final test, hence, the mule team project.

[Ankerson]

There's a very obvious reason why bladesports makers won't use s30v or s110v but they've swarmed m4 and vanadis 4e. Yes, there are intangibles involved, but with blade sports the primary goal is to cut a variety of things while keeping a sharp edge. Most people don't cut 20 miles of cardboard or rope but they'll cut 20 different materials before wanting to sharpen. That's why there's never been a rope or cardboard cutting competition in the US BUT there is a competition that tests edges on a variety of materials in a variety of cutting methods and it's not all simply brute force or cutting soft, abrasive materials.

And there's still a reason Spyderco uses charpy tests. I doubt it is just to raise prices on their knives. I guess q-fog testing is absolutely pointless, too? No. It gives a qualitative starting point with real world use in demanding, real world environments being the final test, hence, the mule team project.

Charpy tests are done by the steel companies and 1" thick steel bars are used.

M4 has been used quite a bit and CPM 4V/V4E are also gaining ground lately.

No reason why S30V and S110V couldn't be used in Blade Sports, some have actually used them along with CPM 10V has been used before and a handfull of other steels.

The top guys have settled on CPM 4V/V4E and CPM M4 however due to the blend of properties that they provide for that type of use.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

How tough are the AUS series of stainless steel made in Japan?

Also, what about 154 CM?

[Ankerson]

How tough are the AUS series of stainless steel made in Japan?

Also, what about 154 CM?

All depends on HT etc.

No clear answers to this question except it depends.

The knife companies to their own R&D and adjust the HT etc based on intended use of the knives.

I know Spyderco and Cold Steel do extensive testing, way beyond the norm.

[me2]

How tough are the AUS series of stainless steel made in Japan?

Also, what about 154 CM?

Depends mostly on the carbon content. The lower ones like AUS 6 and AUS 8 should be fairly tough, comparable to AEB-L and 420HC. Lets put it this way, I wouldn't turn away an AUS 6 machete or 7" field knife in AUS 8.

[me2]

Whoops, missed 154CM. I haven't used it in large fixed blades, and I'd probably avoid it for rough use knives with blades over 5". Folders or hunting knives not for bone work, no problem.

[spyderg]

Obviously a lot of factors to consider, grind, blade shape, intended uses, etc. List could go on forever. But assuming a common knife, that perhaps sees a bit of rough use doing typical edc uses plus say camping/hiking duties and yard work I’m going with semi stainless in 3v or Cruwear. Ctsxhp in my experience is great all around as a stainless option and seems pretty tough. No complaints with s35vn either, I’ve beat the snot out of my Insingo Sebenza which has come out no worse for the wear. My one knife in 110v (Native) is VERY chippy.

[Bodog]

Obviously a lot of factors to consider, grind, blade shape, intended uses, etc. List could go on forever. But assuming a common knife, that perhaps sees a bit of rough use doing typical edc uses plus say camping/hiking duties and yard work I’m going with semi stainless in 3v or Cruwear. Ctsxhp in my experience is great all around as a stainless option and seems pretty tough. No complaints with s35vn either, I’ve beat the snot out of my Insingo Sebenza which has come out no worse for the wear. My one knife in 110v (Native) is VERY chippy.

Like i said before and you just reiterated, it's a lifestyle thing and when you finda quality steel with good toughness, and you find you need toughness, in a blade shape that works well for you heat treated by people who know what they're doing, you probably won't want to go back to s30v or s110v.

[The Meat man]

Maybe the question could be rephrased as, "What is the toughest stainless steel used in Spyderco knives?"

That way we can talk about specific steels from a specific manufacturer with specific heat treatments, without getting too bogged down in ambiguities.

[tvenuto]

Maybe the question could be rephrased as, "What is the toughest stainless steel used in Spyderco knives?"

That way we can talk about specific steels from a specific manufacturer with specific heat treatments, without getting too bogged down in ambiguities.

The cladding used on the Hap40 models.

[emanuel]

This is a good video of a toughness test for CPM 154, CPM s35vn and Elmax;

https://youtu.be/lpOQeH-W17Y

In this test Elmax looks like the toughest of these three.

Elmax also had the lowest hardness, so that could explain it.

[SCBaldr]

This thread is sort of a mind bender for me. I really don't go in for the "hard use" which many knives claim to be built for. I'm an EDCer. I use knives as I go about my day to do any number of cutting tasks I might run into. Maybe i'm at a restaurant and I need to cut up some food and the flatware definitely needs to be fired. Maybe there are some fraying strings on my shirt which need to be cut off. Maybe I need to open some mail or cut a product out of its opening proof packaging. Whatever the case may be, I'l probably never ask one of my knives to do the kinds of things that I see EDC blades being subjected to on youtube for testing and I have to think that I'm the rule, not the exception. That said, I'm a knife nerd. I make knives, I sharpen knives, I modify knives. I like knives, so I buy them, and learn about them and go to knife nerd events and participate in knife nerd forums. Beyond that, I don't really see myself needing my EDC blades to be rock proof and hard diamonds hard on the rockwell infinity scale. I've never chipped one of my edges and I've only a handful of times perceptibly worn down an edge in one sitting when breaking down lots of cardboard. So I'll probably never see the benefits of having any of the steels I have. That said, I will vote for straight 1055 in the thoughness department.

The quality that is much more important to me is the ability of a steel to easily take a scary sharp fine edge. For that, traditional French Carbon steel is really hard to beat. When I was a professional cook, I had a Victorinox as my workhorse and I found myself having to touch up the edge a few times every night and even when I would sit down with the stones and strops, I was never able to achieve the kind of edge quality which all of my bosses, who had older Sabatier and Theirs Issard Models had. For me, this is why I love my Opinel Carbone and will likely never get rid of it. I would like to see a steel that has this quality in a delica or PM2.

[thewoodpecker]

This thread is sort of a mind bender for me. I really don't go in for the "hard use" which many knives claim to be built for. I'm an EDCer. I use knives as I go about my day to do any number of cutting tasks I might run into. Maybe i'm at a restaurant and I need to cut up some food and the flatware definitely needs to be fired. Maybe there are some fraying strings on my shirt which need to be cut off. Maybe I need to open some mail or cut a product out of its opening proof packaging. Whatever the case may be, I'l probably never ask one of my knives to do the kinds of things that I see EDC blades being subjected to on youtube for testing and I have to think that I'm the rule, not the exception. That said, I'm a knife nerd. I make knives, I sharpen knives, I modify knives. I like knives, so I buy them, and learn about them and go to knife nerd events and participate in knife nerd forums. Beyond that, I don't really see myself needing my EDC blades to be rock proof and hard diamonds hard on the rockwell infinity scale. I've never chipped one of my edges and I've only a handful of times perceptibly worn down an edge in one sitting when breaking down lots of cardboard. So I'll probably never see the benefits of having any of the steels I have. That said, I will vote for straight 1055 in the thoughness department.

The quality that is much more important to me is the ability of a steel to easily take a scary sharp fine edge. For that, traditional French Carbon steel is really hard to beat. When I was a professional cook, I had a Victorinox as my workhorse and I found myself having to touch up the edge a few times every night and even when I would sit down with the stones and strops, I was never able to achieve the kind of edge quality which all of my bosses, who had older Sabatier and Theirs Issard Models had. For me, this is why I love my Opinel Carbone and will likely never get rid of it. I would like to see a steel that has this quality in a delica or PM2.

Try the 52100 PM2. Performance should be fairly similar to the carbon steel from Sabatier and better than Opinel.