OT: Incase you forgot

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
java
Member
Posts: 2975
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Rosamond - Tropical Paradise without the tropics.....(or the paradise)

Postby java » Sun Mar 30, 2003 8:46 pm

Probably should have posted this before my rant....

<font size="3"><b>Delicrazy!!!</font></b>

Go to your room and no Spydies for you today. You and Connor have different opinions but we all have to play nice. This will not look good on today's Outpatient Report and I will be seriously disappointed if the Resplendent One (Sword and Shield) uses one of my thorazine cocktail darts on you! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>



Edited by - java on 3/30/2003 7:47:42 PM

User avatar
rorschach
Member
Posts: 626
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: The Crossroads of America
Contact:

Postby rorschach » Sun Mar 30, 2003 9:50 pm

Java,
Let me be the first to congratulate you on your scintillating essay above ! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Warms my heart to see you actually took the effort to list history, reason, and logic to someone who has made up their mind for (likely) social reasons. I am usually too cynical to argue with protestors, but I am going to print out a copy of your essay and hand it to the next person who calls me a hawk.

Thanks again. Your response was excellent.

-Rorschach :][: <a href=http://members.cox.net/gurban>HOS</a>

User avatar
ken
Member
Posts: 862
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Land of "OZ" California

Postby ken » Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:30 am

WOW JAVA-

Thanks for the history lesson. You pretty much said it all. Freedom is priceless! A lot of people don't really know this!

rorschach- nice little web site you got there! Very nice knives. So which one is your EDC?

ken




Edited by - ken on 3/30/2003 11:42:26 PM

Jeff/1911
Member
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Western Canada

Postby Jeff/1911 » Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:26 am

Java,

Thank you very much for writing this. You are most articulate and pleasant to read.

Best wishes, Jeff/1911.

Sword and Shield
Member
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: USA

Postby Sword and Shield » Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:27 pm

Gentlemen, please. Settle.

First off, welcome to <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>Land, Connor! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> You are surprisingly well-versed in US military history. However, there is one error that I see. You see, the Kurds were defenseless. They had no gas masks, no training on how to defend against fallout, nothing of the sort. A child in 1950s America would have known more. Those soldiers/sailors in harm's way at least had some level of training and protection. A proud day? No. Similar to the Kurdish attacks? Also no.

Cool off, gents. Whether the US should have gone to war is irrelevant, as we already have done so. The important thing now is to have it done with as soon as possible.

Never underestimate the impossible.

gadfly
Member
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Bala Cynwyd, PA USA

Postby gadfly » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:23 pm

Connor,

Welcome to the Forum.

One of the wonderful things about the United States, and this Forum, is that you're entitled to your opinion and say (this should be done respectfully). I'm glad you're interested enough to have an opinion.
It's generally a good idea to be opposed to war. "It's a good thing that war is so horrible, otherwise man would grow quite fond of it" to paraphrase Robert E. Lee.

I would like to share some of my feelings with you and continue this dialogue.

When I was in the seventh grade I stood up to a bully and my life has always been the better for it - in fact, I ended becoming very good friends with the bully.

Words fail me in describing what I felt when I watched over two thousand people go to their deaths back on 911, in my native New York. The one clear thought was THIS IS WAR! People from almost every country in the world were killed that day. I agree that Iraq is not the only (or even the major) source of terrorism.

As a lover of freedom, I feel We have the right to defend ourselves (whether the UN likes it or not). If breaking everything off would make our problems go away, I would do it in a heart-beat. However, I believe that this approach would have the opposite effect - that is embolden the Iraqi punk.

While I have generally been a fan of the the UN, sometimes I think that stupid things are the result of trying to solve problems politically. The UN policies of containment and sanctions combined with Iraq's desire to have weapons, more than feed its people, has resulted in the deaths of about one million people (most of them children) over the last twelve years. Talk about criminal!

Freedom comes at a price and I feel that being the most hated country on earth is not too high a price. I'm not sure We weren't already in that position.

connor
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Saarbruecken, Germany

Postby connor » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:15 pm

Oh my, lots of answers. :-) And before I forget this: Thanks for all the welcomes. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Ok .. first: I am not here to provoke any of you or just to talk bad about americans. I think what I write and the way I write it should make this clear, hopefully.

@java
Serious consequences could mean anything from a raised index finger combined with a dispraising look to nuking Iraq into oblivion. It's *unprecise* and it shouldn't suffice to start a *war* in my humble opinion. Especially not when Iraq really seemed to comply and did everything Blix wanted .. regarding those Al-samoud II missiles flying 20km too far because they had no payload "on board" and thus being too lightweight ... now this really was a joke, wasn't it?
Even though I would say some of what you said was correct, I miss an important fact from the history books here: Unfortunately it was America who "raised" Saddam because they needed him in the fight against Iran. They gave him money, weapons and even weapons of mass destruction. Mr. Rumsfeld in particular is responsible for this. When Saddam was of no use for "you" anymore, you dumped him. Now you perceive your former ally as a threat and try to get rid of him again. Exactly this behaviour makes so many muslims angry at the american people and it is the reason why many call your foreign politics "imperialistic" and "hegemonistic": You make the same mistakes as they do, but because you have the most powerful army on the world, you just invade another country and lead them into "democrazy". I already said this, but think about it again please: What party would you think would the Iraqi people elect if you arrange free elections in say, 6 months? Most probably they will vote for some fundamentalistic islamic party. This will of course not happen, but this also means you cannot claim that you bring *democrazy* to the Iraqi people.

Again, the law of nations "allows" to reasons for a war: Direct self-defense or a war that is sanctioned by the UN. Both is not the case and thus the amercian governemt started an illegal war - a most severe crime.

@Sword and Shield & gadfly
Thank you for your polite comments. I understand that the american citizens have been shocked and traumatized by the events of 9/11. I remember this day vividly as well .. I sat before my TV the whole day and I just couldn't believe what I saw. I understand that you are very angry at the people who did that and those who supported them. Unfortunately the Iraq most probably wasn't one of the supporters. Your own secret service, the CIA, stated that clearly. Furthermore it was again a sort of "home made" problem: It was the american government who provided lots of money and weapons to the Taliban to help them fight against the former soviet union in Afghanistan. They teached them in guerilla warfare and now that the war against the russians in Afghanistan is over they have turned against you with the weapons and knowledge you provided.

Did any of you read the news? Look for what the *Iraqi people* say about this war. Look what the majority of the muslims on this planet think about this war (300.000 demonstrants in Jakarta yesterday). They HATE America for what they perceive as unjust imperialistic politics just based on the needs of the USA (-> OIL). Noone of them believes you that your intention is to free the Iraqi people or kill Saddam (whom they hate, but not as much as they hate americans). They think America just wants the oil of the Iraq and now you go there and take it, because you can. The Iraqi people don't want you to liberate them and for sure they don't want you to conquer them. And you cannot conquer a country (forever) when the people living there are against you. This is an old and well-known truth.
Look what happens in Palestine, because this is what will happen to your troops inside Iraq once you "won" this war. Doesn't look like a better future for the Iraqi people to me.

Peace,

Connor

connor
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Saarbruecken, Germany

Postby connor » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:42 pm

I almost forgot my main point: So what we have now are millions of muslims even more angry at the USA than they were before, and the US troops inside the "heart" of the arabic countries. Is anyone of you REALLY thinking THIS will make the life of the american people SAFER? I fear the opposite will become true. Because of the unsensitive unjust and, well, imperialistic approach of the american government terrorist attacks on american targets will become more likely, not less. :-(

-Connor

User avatar
AllenETreat
Member
Posts: 3156
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: The Constitution State USA

Postby AllenETreat » Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:05 pm

Connor :

Let's put it this way : American's who(m)
enlist in the armed services of the United States KNOW they're going to train for NBC
( Nuclear, Biological & Chemical ) warfare,
I don't think ANY country's military ( even
the Soviet Union's, when it existed ) didn't
tell their troops what they were going to be
up against when they enlisted for the abuse
( ever been to boot camp, Connor? ) meebee
some facts about radiation were not known in the 50's, when OBTW, we started sending troops into nuclear fallout area(s) ( such as
in "The atomic cafe" where we see U.S. Marines charging "over the top" into the looming mushroom cloud ) yes, we have had our
share of peacetime casualties. We learn by our mistakes. The PROBLEM here is why our
ally ( it now seems former ) the Federal
Repvblic (?) of Germany has deserted it's
Amie friends at a time of need. Strange you
should refer to us as "imperialistic";Germany
was "imperialistic" for about 500 years
( don't have my history book(s) handy ( perhaps Java can clarify ) from the Holy
Roman Empire until the reign of the Kaisers ;
I don't count the Weimar Repvblic or National
Socialist Germany as "imperialists", just a
bankrupt Repvblic set up after the first war & a buncha warmongerers in the second, respectively. ) and Connor, if you're a communist or socialist, I'm NOT sorry, they TOO have their "causes" <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> for which they fight. If you want to get into this with me
click on the "mail" icon above this ( or any of ) my post(s) and we can swap viewpoints.

It's a sad note that American's first think of Nazi Germany when they think of Germans.

Ever hear of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

User avatar
java
Member
Posts: 2975
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Rosamond - Tropical Paradise without the tropics.....(or the paradise)

Postby java » Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:41 pm

Connor,

Your arguments are becoming interesting and it appears you would like to continue this discourse. It is OT and as long as everyone else is cool, I have taken no offense so once more into the breech we go.

We used Saddam Hussein as one of the Twin Pillars in our ME doctrine from 1972 ‘till parting ways in the late 80s. We are guilty for propping him up, but not as you charge – unless you have proof of CBW exports. Dual use products are another story and more than you know are complicit here. We woke up, as I hope the rest of the world will when this tyrant and his entire regime are shown for what they are, and found our “ally” was not the beneficent ruler we were lulled to believe. And yes we supported Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War, as did most of our allies to contain not just the fundamentalist Iranian regime but to limit Soviet influence in the area. Saddam was buying Soviet weapons until we lured him with better.

It’s so easy to point the finger elsewhere to assuage the Franco-German conscience but truth be told, we are all guilty of creating and supplying this madman. France had a strong relationship with Iraq that predated the war – it was France that sold Iraq a nuclear reactor in 1976 that was ostensibly for energy production but the French knew it was intended to produce nuclear weaponry. Consequently, it did not take much encouragement for France to deepen its ties to Iraq. By 1982, Iraq accounted for 40% of French arms exports. Paris sold Baghdad a wide range of weapons including armored vehicles, air defense radars, surface-to-air missiles, Mirage fighters, and Exocet anti-ship missiles. German firms also rushed in without much compunction, not only selling Iraq large numbers of trucks and automobiles, but also building vast complexes for Iraq’s chemical warfare, biological warfare, and ballistic missile programs. Although Iraq did pretend that the German equipment and expertise were for civilian purposes, no perceptive scientist could have bought this ruse. But in the 1980s, no one in the West, and I believe both Germany and France are still part of the “West”, asked too many questions.

Some of what I stated was correct? Gee, I’ll take that hit. I went back and reviewed all UNCRs regarding the Iraq-Kuwait situation, on a page against the UN imposed sanctions BTW, and discovered I was in error. From the passage of UNSCR-660, which called for Iraq’s withdrawal from its occupation of Kuwait to date there are no less than 66 resolutions. Sorry for the error, but again I ask, over twelve plus years, how much is enough? Saddam has awarded oil for humanitarian aide contracts to those who sympathize with his point of view and sad to say its not the US and oil but the French and Russians and oil that are the winners here and it was the Russians with the French not wanting to be left out that broke the back of UNCR-670.

If you believe that Hans Blix and his inspectors were receiving Iraqi compliance and making good progress, then you need to go back and read Mr. Blix’s last report and tell him you disagree with his own conclusions. Saddam played the same cat-and-mouse game with Butler, Ritter, and the rest of UNSCOM – and they initially thought they were making progress. As for the Al-samoud II, listen to the theatre commanders and the imbedded reporters then argue with them that some of the missiles are not coming from over 150 km away and if they are then they must not have warheads. I give you the benefit here – maybe they’re not really Al-samoud IIs. They’re probably some other proscribed missile. Yeah, that’s the ticket! Another proscribed missile that our cooperative Mr. Hussein was about to declare before we launched a hideously amoral invasion of his peace-loving country.

The US was dragged kicking and screaming into its role as a super-power beginning with WWI. We were content to live on our isolated big island while keeping a hands-off approach as long as trade routes remained intact. Allen pegged it pretty well with German imperialism and I would go so far as to include the rest of Europe, East Asia, and the Middle East as minor players in the same category. Our imperialism, as you label it, was confined to Manifest Destiny and the horrors we wrought on our native Americans. What we have conquered in armed conflict has returned to the world of free nations and prospered, for the most part – and you’re welcome. You may not believe our vision of Iraqi Freedom and they may select a fundamentalist government. If they do, that’s their choice, and let’s hope it’s an honest fundamentalist and not a secularist who uses religion, Arab nationalism, and the self inflicted suffering of his own people as tools in a propaganda machine that is bent on its own survival. The stories will come out about life under Saddam soon enough for the world to see the horrors caused by the Ba’athist regime’s ruthless oppression. When they do, there will be the non-believers in the Arab world and the same Holocaust nay-sayers that accept Peter Arnett and Al-Jazeera as gospel. I hope you can keep a non-prejudiced eye and ear open and not fall prey to either side before deciding your truth here. You had asked what Germany under Hitler 50 years ago had to do with the current war. I might suggest that it served as a lesson for what could happen. Allen probably knows the quote source so I'll just say the "Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it."

Nice points but your facts need restating to include all parties complicit here. I have an extensive reading list if you should desire. Got to hit the hay. Hang in there and keep on posting on! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>


<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - <i>Javanese proverb"</i><font>

User avatar
AllenETreat
Member
Posts: 3156
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: The Constitution State USA

Postby AllenETreat » Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:23 pm

"Those who do not remember the past are
condemned to repeat it"

George Satayana <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

delicrazy
Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby delicrazy » Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:39 pm

*hangs head*
aye java, i went to bed with no desert or delica flipping. normally im pretty calm in expressing my views but these anti war people make me pretty darn mad.
@ connor,
whatever you choose to believe is fine, its because of americas freedoms that we can converse openly like this. whatever floats your boat. i believe this war is a necesarry (although ugly) must. id argue with you but i think most of your understandings are a wee bit higher than mine. so ill just shaddup and quietly cheer java

delicrazy
Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby delicrazy » Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:40 pm

(go java!)

User avatar
java
Member
Posts: 2975
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Rosamond - Tropical Paradise without the tropics.....(or the paradise)

Postby java » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:10 pm

Delicrazy,
I feel bad for being so harsh on ya now. The bed with no desert was good but I never meant to take away the Delica flippin'. That's just plain mean to take a man's Spydies.

Allen,
Thanks for the source, I knew I could count on ye!

Rorshach,
Thanks! When I grow up, I want to live in the House of Spyders!

Ken and the rest o' youse, and that includes you too Connor,
Thanks for your support in my OT indulgences. Even when we disagree here, Forumites are civil. Cool! Keep on postin on.

Changing gears here. Maybe a little tongue-in-cheek but just a reminder from a different perspective. Caught this story in the Sidney Morning Herald and it made me realize that amid the storm clouds of war and the political rhetoric many fall victim -
even Saddam.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>An Iraqi Kurd refugee living in Norway finds his name Saddam Hussein too troublesome, and has applied to have it changed officially, the Oslo newspaper Aftenposten reported. "It's no fun being called Saddam Hussein these days," the 20-year-old Kurd, who lives in the town of Nome in the northern district of Telemark, was quoted as saying. "When my father chose the name 20 years ago, we didn't know about Saddam. The president was a respected man, even among Kurds," he added. Saddam said he had received obscene calls from people who found his name in the telephone directory. He has applied to the Norwegian authorities to have his name changed to Dastanse Rasol Hussein.
Saddam, whose grandmother and several other relatives were killed in Iraqi military poison gas attacks on the Kurdish town of Halabja in March 1988, arrived in Norway as a refugee two years ago. His mother still lives in Iraq, and he fears for her safety.
<hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>


GN&GB


<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>

Edited by - java on 4/1/2003 10:12:56 PM

Hoosierdaddy
Member
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Ca. USA

Postby Hoosierdaddy » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:29 am

Hey boys it's been awhile, just had to put my two cents in!

Up until a few months ago I was proud to say I was German-American... not anymore. Oh I was born in America, never been to Germany but was proud of my heritage. I guess was is the key word! I'm not bashing Germany so don't get me wrong.

Connor,
first off Welcome to the Forum!

America is a Republic, not a Democrazy as you put it. It says so in the pledge of allegaince... "and too the Republic for which it stands". We (the U.S.) are not trying to force a Democracy or a Republic on anyone! What we are trying to do is keep an insane madman from killing many innocent people. I don't entirely agree with the way our Government went about starting this "situation" but stand behind them wholeheartedly!

Your comments sound a little vague, you said "it seemed Iraq was cooperating with Hans Blix and the U.N." He's either in compliance or not, I would choose the latter. There is no seeming about it. Do we have to wait until Saddam makes a "parking lot" out of Israel before we get involved, I think not! Lets put this into context that you can understand, say oh I dunno Germany was his enemy. Do we have to wait before Germany is blown off the face of the planet before we react, I bet you hope we wouldn't. With any war many innocent lives will be lost, it's a part of war.

As for the oil, there are plenty of other sources of oil. Venezula, Mexico, (of which I believe has more oil than the Middle East) and I think Texas has plenty of that slippery stuff (I'm sure Java knows if this is true) now I'm the one that sounds vague. My point is we're not there for oil, we are there to keep this Maniacal madman from doing something the world will truly suffer from.

The next issue... Friends... sure we were buddies with Saddam and the Afgannies, but they are the ones that have changed not us. Did you Connor, ever have a friend that went astray? Like got into drugs or killed somebody or something to that effect? Would you still be friends with him?

France did supply Iraq with nuclear supplies and scientists, Israel had enough sense to send planes into Iraq (6 or 8 planes) and bomb the nuke plant before it could go online. Israel did this on a Sunday so hopefully no lives would be lost and in fact I believe none were lost! One of the pilots on this mission was the Israelli astronaut lost in the Columbia tragedy, Ilan Ramon I think his name was.

I support our troops AND my Government for its actions, God bless them and God help them! I hope our troops return safely and soon!

There is an awful lot more to write but I have to get some rest so I can go to work to earn some more money to buy some more Spydies!!!!!

cmassicotte
Member
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Buena Park, CA USA

Postby cmassicotte » Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:30 pm

Java - I know I have come late to this party, but I do want to thank you your first post - and for your articulate and reasoned responses to Connor.

Though it quickly went off topic - I do beleive that this has been the example of just how civil and open this community is. Kind of goes to why I value this forum and my friends here so much. -- And miss you all when I am away ---

Chuck

There is no right way to do a wrong thing

User avatar
voxnaes
Member
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Denmark

Postby voxnaes » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:14 am

Did you bring back any Sprite, Chuck??!!<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Welcome to the forum Conner!!<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Vox.

User avatar
java
Member
Posts: 2975
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Rosamond - Tropical Paradise without the tropics.....(or the paradise)

Postby java » Tue Apr 08, 2003 8:06 am

Welcome back Chuck,

It appeared things were quiet and going quite swimmingly. It does amaze me how even in the heat of disagreement we remain civil - that is until Vox brings up his single malt abuse!!! A man's got his limits, you know! Gads, what a thought to wake up to. It's going to take a quadruple breve to smooth me out this morning after hearin' that... pesky no taste, Sprite swillin', whiskey wastin, Spydie smugglin' Viking!! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

RKDA

cmassicotte
Member
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Buena Park, CA USA

Postby cmassicotte » Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:18 am

Vox!!!!

Here we had this civil, if spirited discusion going on -- and you have to bring Sprite into the conversation. Now I really do want to keep this discourse friendly and civil - so I will simply point out to ye that the word "Sprite" is actually a four letter word. Yes, I know, yer brain will try to fool ye, but I have done the research. The term Sprite was frist coined by Carrie Nation circa 1890 in an attempt to demonize the word Spirits - the poor lass having never had the opportunity to experience true Scotish Malt hadn't a clue - and the rest of course is history. Since as you know most of us do our best not to use four letter words - or derivitives therof - in this humble family forum, I beseech thee to cease and desist with the use of the word "Sprite". I have long been a true and faithful advocate of free an open speech - however it may be that the use of some language should be banned..


<img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

I do love ye like me brother Vox,but ye can be so trying at times.

There is no right way to do a wrong thing


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Catamount123, jdw, nerdlock, prndltech, Robert Ptacek, Spydergirl88, StipeK, tomcatt1, Wartstein and 39 guests