(Q) should Spyderco publish there Rockwell Hardness of there knives or should they do a “MAX’ line where they harden the

[Stuman]

Hello Guys,

I was recently reading a thread where folks were guessing about why they think Spyderco doesn’t tell us the HRC if there knives and it then dawned on me ! wouldn’t it be a great idea if you could choose the hardness as factory custom order (Not on there Full Production Knives) I’m only asking because I just want to know your thoughts and if it sparks any new ideas (Not Saying Spyderco are listening though) but anyway it would be nice to hear if people have any nice constructive ideas.

[Sjucaveman]

I don't care an exact number. The number does nothing for me, the performance of the blade speaks for itself.

[The Deacon]

I've been a member here for over 14 years and, in that time, Sal has repeatedly nixed the idea of any type of "custom shop". If that's not enough, I seriously doubt they have the equipment to individually heat treat single blades. As I understand it, the "ideal" hardness varies from steel to steel and can even vary with the thickness and grind. Not sure there are many, if any, here who could actually do a better job of choosing a target hardness. Given the I've never had a Spyderco I considered "too soft" know I sure as **** couldn't.

[Stuman]

Oh no don’t get me wrong I’m not saying Spydercos are too soft and I’m sorry for the confusion. Infact they are fantastic and I wouldn’t change a thing but what I’m saying is if there were the option where you could order a factory custom with a choice of say 3 different hardness what would you choose. I’m certainly not saying Spydercos heat treats are inadequate far from it I’m just asking if you have any ideas if they did do a factory custom and what choices would you like and I was just thinking why don’t Spyderco let us know the Rockwell hardness of there knives and why don’t they offer a custom heat treat if they ever do a factory custom in the future. Not that I’m saying they ever will do a custom line.p but it’s definitely something I’d love to buy even if it commands a higher premium price.

[dsvirsky]

I can't imagine a business model where your idea would make sense for Spyderco. If you want some choice as to the hardness for a particular blade, you'll have to get a custom knife. Even then, the knifemaker may not be receptive, since their name is going on the knife.

[The Deacon]

I was just thinking why don’t Spyderco let us know the Rockwell hardness of there knives and why don’t they offer a custom heat treat if they ever do a factory custom in the future. Not that I’m saying they ever will do a custom line.p but it’s definitely something I’d love to buy even if it commands a higher premium price.

Am sure at least part of the reason is because Rockwell hardness is going to vary +1 or -1 from their "target hardness" from knife to knife and, in at least some cases, from one spot on a given knife's blade to another. Besides, no matter what number they say they're shooting for, some self proclaimed internet expert will claim that hardness is wrong for that steel and his sycophants will start multiple thread about it here, and on every other internet knife forum. Yet another self styled guru will claim they tested it themselves and found it to be 1 point lower than advertised, with similar results. Don't believe me, both have happened in the past when Sal was kind enough to share the target Rockwell for a specific model.

[bh49]

By education I am mechanical engineer. Last 27 years I am working in quality function in various capacities, so I know a thing or two about hardness and hardness measurements. Also I know that two pieces identical pieces with the same hardness can perform quite differently due to different heat treatment process.
So, if I am happy with my blade performance why should I care about hardness number?

[SG89]

I see no benefit for spyderco to publish this info.

[Stuman]

Well I think it’s just good to know. I saw some one say it’s like ordering a super car or sports car then knowing what type of fuel runs on and what size engine is in it, so it’s like stainless or carbon and engine size is the hardness and because it would be a factory custom like a super car, I don’t have a problem with Spyderco not telling me the Rockwell of my knife but I am curious why not, however they are other companies that do so and even a ball park number would be good to know, + or - 1 HRC is used as for example a lot of companies say 62 to 64 or 63 HRC so The Deacon I don’t think it is for that reason. Anyway it’s good to read all of your thoughts about this discussion.

[Nate]

Again, for anyone who cares to read and comprehend:

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... =2&t=60533

I especially appreciate this bit of the previous discussion:

It isn't difficult to get a high hardness on a steel especially in production, just call up any professional heat treating company like Peter's, they can easily produce any hardness you want. However judging steel by hardness is like judging how someone can play basketball by height. It is a factor but can't be considered in exclusion...

Of course any production heat treating facility can handle HSS which demands even higher temperatures with no issues. But again, hardness without micro-structure is like someone tall without any athletic talent - not a good argument for picking them for basketball.

[SF Native]

Pretty sure that we don’t have enough information to really make these decisions. It wouldn’t be 2 weeks before there is all this hype about how amazing the rc62 endura is. You have to have one. And a month later, a whole thread on chipping or fractured blades. Or a guy trying to sell his delica that is only rc 59 and can’t find a single taker.

[zhyla]

While hardness info is interesting for the curious the reality is most people (including this forum) just aren’t able to make good choices with that information. The uninformed obsession with hardness just isn’t good for anybody. Spyderco know how to choose hardness for a given steel and blade geometry. Few people have the equipment to make those choices.

[me2]

I can't say much more than anything already said. It would be a bad idea for Spyderco to publish hardness data, particularly after all this time not doing so. It would also be a horrible idea to start a custom shop and let people choose their own heat treatment/hardness. People put way too much emphasis on hardness values. Heat treatment and microstructure are what matter. Hardness is a symptom, not a cause.

[bh49]

Again, for anyone who cares to read and comprehend:

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... =2&t=60533

+1
from that thread

It's something that we stopped doing a long time ago. There are many reasons, many of which were posted here.

I believe that to many, the Rc of a steel is some type of absolute that they can uses to make decisions with. More often than not, most do not understand Rc, how variations work, how different steels respond better to different hardnesses, or many think that the harder the steel the better.

Posting the Rc invites argument. "I think it should be xxx", "Why didn't you xxx?", "So and so says abc", etc. etc.

We generally stay within a point of the hardness that Eric and I select for a steel. Closer than most. This is based on info provided by the foundry and our in house testing.

Hope that helps.

sal

I especially appreciate this bit of the previous discussion:

It isn't difficult to get a high hardness on a steel especially in production, just call up any professional heat treating company like Peter's, they can easily produce any hardness you want. However judging steel by hardness is like judging how someone can play basketball by height. It is a factor but can't be considered in exclusion...

Of course any production heat treating facility can handle HSS which demands even higher temperatures with no issues. But again, hardness without micro-structure is like someone tall without any athletic talent - not a good argument for picking them for basketball.

In my honest opinion for Spyderco to publish hardness range for the blades is exposing the company to the risk of numerous baseless complains or unfavorable public comments.
What % of knife afi, who love to talk about hardness of the blades have knowledge of variation of production heat-treating process or uncertainties of hardness testing? 50%? 75%? Possibly more?

[Ankerson]

The actual HRC number really doesn't mean what most think it means.

It's the actual HT that really matters, what they are going for performance wise, could be max wear resistance, max corrosion resistance, max toughness or a blend.

There are always trade offs, to get one thing you have to give up another.

[bluntcut]

Main reasons for NOT publishing HRC - it is a testable number/spec, so variation+emotion+uninformed incline to lower sales and at the same time - higher liabilities (supports & returns). Secondary, HRC is just a sanity/pulse-check reflect decent ht result. This quantity/HRC at operating/working hardness doesn't reflects quality of HT.

Bragging/PR/Engineering reasons to publish, albeit a small niche/custom market.
Highest peak/AQ HRC = implied, lowest retained austenite % = inferred, better ht than everyone else.
Highest HRC at X temper temperatures (350F, 400F, ..) = nerd. Good/Bad/Ugly performance depends on tasks but buyers decide instead of maker/mfg.

[Stuman]

Well thanx everyone it’s just good to know these things as it makes me a more informed customer better able to make decisions based on what I need and not what I want. As far as heat treats go I think it’s based on what you are going to be doing with that blade and the requirements for the hardness interms for the job in hand. There is a Niche for knives with ridiculous Rockwell hardnesess as one offs like Rocksteads ZDP 189 lines of knives that most people only buy one of them due to the expense but will never be able to use it to its full potential and then there’s Sandrin Knives who make full TC knives that are just as insanely expensive and insanely sharp even more then Rockstead knives but again you will never be able to use Tungsten Carbide knives to its full potential and then there’s sharpening which has to be done by CNC machinery to get it to a sub micron Edge as carbide can be sharpened a lot more smaller than steel due to its hardness and there’s then the issue of sending a really expensive knife to Italy to be sharpened. There is always a market for insanely hard edged knives but you have to fork over a lot of money to jump on that bandwagon.

[zhyla]

Well thanx everyone it’s just good to know these things as it makes me a more informed customer better able to make decisions based on what I need and not what I want. As far as heat treats go I think it’s based on what you are going to be doing with that blade and the requirements for the hardness interms for the job in hand. There is a Niche for knives with ridiculous Rockwell hardnesess as one offs like Rocksteads ZDP 189 lines of knives that most people only buy one of them due to the expense but will never be able to use it to its full potential and then there’s Sandrin Knives who make full TC knives that are just as insanely expensive and insanely sharp even more then Rockstead knives but again you will never be able to use Tungsten Carbide knives to its full potential and then there’s sharpening which has to be done by CNC machinery to get it to a sub micron Edge as carbide can be sharpened a lot more smaller than steel due to its hardness and there’s then the issue of sending a really expensive knife to Italy to be sharpened. There is always a market for insanely hard edged knives but you have to fork over a lot of money to jump on that bandwagon.

This is the blind obsession with hardness I was referring to above. General use knives should not be excessively hard. And when customers know a number but not the trade offs we end up with a market pressure to “turn it up to 11”. We’ve already seen this with blade thickness and grinds.

[me2]

I can't say much more than anything already said. It would be a bad idea for Spyderco to publish hardness data, particularly after all this time not doing so.

Can you elaborate on this? I don't disagree, I'm genuinely curious. I'm inclined to believe "bad" is slightly overkill. As I've already stated I don't think it's necessary to know the number and I won't ever complain about not knowing it, as it is spyderco's decision, and I respect that.

I just think it would cost them a lot of time in headaches and emails. Someone pulls out a Delica from 15 years ago and tests it and now it's not good enough. Heaven knows what that knife has been through. There would just be a lot of hassle and no return. I doubt they'd suddenly sell a lot a knives just because they put this info out there.

[The Mastiff]

The internet being what it is can be reason enough to not publish hardness numbers. If you release one set of numbers someone somewhere will find the tester that tests the knife out of spec. That will somehow turn into stories of blown heat treats, etc..

If I need the hardness numbers bad enough I can get my knife tested. I'm not going to tell a company who makes the knife I carry how they should do their job.

Joe