Sharpening S110V

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Ankerson
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#121

Post by Ankerson »

Vivi wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:41 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:39 pm
Vivi wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:37 pm
sharpness testing is legit and easy to do at home. Somewhere I can scrounge up the setup I made. Simple little block of wood with a nail hammered into each side and a V shaped notch on the top. Loop some sewing thread around both nails and push cut straight down on the thread with the block of wood resting on a postal scale.

The sharpest factory knives took about 80g of force to push cut the thread. Most factory knives took 120-150g of force. My hand sharpened knives, mostly VG10 and S30V finished with a DMT fine stone at the time, got into the 30's.
I use the KN100 Sharpness tester, but everyone has their own ideas.
I made mine before this product was out. It's basically the same idea, just an incredibly barebones version of it :)

Maybe I'll get one of those some day.

They aren't cheap, it's the media that really makes the difference though I think, it's very consistent. Makes no difference about temperature, humidity etc.

For me it's just another data point before testing.

Disclaimer: I don't endorse Edge On Up and in no way connected with them.
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Deadboxhero
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#122

Post by Deadboxhero »

3 years ago I was all polish (mirror bevel everything)
I fully believed and touted it's superiority.

Until I came across Ankersons testing. I then realized when I was cutting Manilla rope I was just adding all my strength into the cut to make it cut longer, I wasn't testing the edge finish or the steel I was testing Geometry as well as my strength and will. Also that I had never really tried a legit toothy edge because I wasn't fully deburring at low grit and used the polishing stones as a crutch.


What also put everything together was several years ago when I sharpened a set of henckels to a mirror finish for a friend, he is a real foodie and cooks everyday and grows ingredients in his garden.

I got the edge nice and crisp I really took my time,400, 1000, 3000, 16k strop.

They only lasted a day of cooking!!
I came to his house a few days later to see what he was talking about, he shows me the knives and complains they are dull. He proceeded to cut a quartered piece green pepper with the skin side up with a plunge cut and his knuckles against the blade. But the edge was slipping on the tough skin until he added pressure and slightly crushed the ingredients. I checked the edge. The apex had no damage and was beautiful, also it would cut paper clean but it wasn't "crisp" at the Apex. That's when I realized there was alot of things at play these knives were 55hrc a crisp apex relies on the strength the steel which hardness plays a role in. So it didn't make sense to mirror Polish a steel that doesn't have the strength to support it. I gave him a 400 grit edge deburred with 1000grit and stropped with 16k diamond, He was very happy. He had the teeth to bite into tough ripe pepper skin and tomato skin yet enough polish to cut the flesh of the veggies too without tearing.
Just goes to show that knife geek "sport sharpening" isn't the best for all. It's more specific


I think Murray Carter said it best.

"There things you cut to throw away, and things you cut to save"

What he elaborated on this is if your cutting stuff to throw away like cardboard and packages who cares about the cutting quality, it's better to get the endurance and aggressiveness of a more toothy edge.

If your cutting stuff to keep like food ingredients and meat portions, etc then polish it up, more precision, cleaner cuts, smoother surfaces, less cell structure damage, keeps ingredients fresher, more flavor. Better textures.

Truth be told, the goal for me now is to have BOTH. I want the bite and raw aggression of the teeth and the push cutting precision of the polish.

I've toned down the polish now and will tweak it to the application and steel. Only my Razors and Yanagibas get the full true mirror.

BTW I really want a 52100 Spydie to polish the hell out of. Gotta save up haha.
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Deadboxhero
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#123

Post by Deadboxhero »

clovehitch wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:56 pm
Image

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276 ... lv3wxe.jpg

Well apparently I'm no longer capable of using photobucket successfully....

Here is some of the rope I'm dealing with. This one is at least 4" and it's not the largest. Since one cut can take a hair popping edge in both s90v and s110v and make it extremely dull (I wouldn't even call it a working edge), I'm going to have to experiment with more coarse of an edge. 600 grit and minimal stropping isnt "cutting" it. I have a DMT X-Coarse (the black stone), but I really don't want to constantly remove so much steel from the blade. I may just have to get a serrated knife (even though I'm not a big fan of them) for cutting rope until the Military becomes available in Maxamet (Please Sal!). Not sure what else to do. I'd prefer not taking sharpening supplies to work, but I may have to. This job has given me a brand new perspective on the importance of edge retention.
Yup, Photobucket signed there own death certificate. They charge now for image hosting.

Start an imgur account.

I really want a Maxamet military

I hope Maxamet makes a come back 2018.
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vivi
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#124

Post by vivi »

I used to have a job where I'd regularly dice 40lbs of onions a day. That's just the onions. Bell peppers banana peppers, portabellas, chicken, beef, minced garlic, hazelnuts....all processed daily in similar quanitities using a lowly Victorinox Chef Knife.

Which edge finish was I using? DMT fine, no strop. Removed metal quick enough for fast touch-ups, left enough teeth for slicing aggression, refined the edge enough for good push cutting ability. I've always felt that stone in particular was a great middle ground.

The DMT Fine and Spyderco medium / brown stones give me just enough teeth for slicing aggression and working edge longevity, while not removing as much metal as my DMT X and XX coarse stones. They're also pretty effortless to achieve shaving sharpness with compared to coarser mediums.

hey guys, I just wanted to let you know I have big hands. :unicorn
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#125

Post by Bill1170 »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm
David,
I'm a polished guy like you, I like the finesse but it's not the best edge for everything.
If we could spend a day cutting fish with Lance the polished edges would loss their bite faster.

Polished is push cutting, toothy is draw cutting.
If you're forcing the edge straight down in the rope then the polish works better. If you draw cutting then the teeth on the toothy help.
Polish is cutting quality
Toothy is cutting quantity

We want the blend of the two

Polished toothy is the goal not a 200 grit toothy edge or a 20,000 polished grit one but a 600-1000 grit with finished with strops to refine the teeth without removing them "polished toothy"

Look up Dave Martell, coined the phrase.

Some need a little more tooth in the polish, some more polish in the toothy.

It's job specific but a blend of the two is best. Except for straight razors, thats all polish.



In the real world, the objective is to find the best blend between the two for the given application and we select the the abrasives that gives us the right combos. That's why I have so many **** stones.


Here's an example,
That polished edge won't last long if you were cleaning fish with Lance. But you would get cleaner cuts on portioning boneless fillets (with the right geometry of course too.)

So it's task specific, Now add different steels, abrasives, heat treatments and geometries and find the endless combinations that synergize performance. That's why knives are great. It's never ending.

That's the obsession of it. The "Idèe Fixe"
That was a righteous great post right there! Very clear and well reasoned. Fits with my own experience, too.
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Deadboxhero
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#126

Post by Deadboxhero »

clovehitch wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:43 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:05 pm


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276 ... lv3wxe.jpg

Well apparently I'm no longer capable of using photobucket successfully....

Here is some of the rope I'm dealing with. This one is at least 4" and it's not the largest. Since one cut can take a hair popping edge in both s90v and s110v and make it extremely dull (I wouldn't even call it a working edge), I'm going to have to experiment with more coarse of an edge. 600 grit and minimal stropping isnt "cutting" it. I have a DMT X-Coarse (the black stone), but I really don't want to constantly remove so much steel from the blade. I may just have to get a serrated knife (even though I'm not a big fan of them) for cutting rope until the Military becomes available in Maxamet (Please Sal!). Not sure what else to do. I'd prefer not taking sharpening supplies to work, but I may have to. This job has given me a brand new perspective on the importance of edge retention.
Yup, Photobucket signed there own death certificate. They charge now for image hosting.

Start an imgur account.

I really want a Maxamet military

I hope Maxamet makes a come back 2018.
Thanks for the info. Apparently "imgbb" doesn't even require an account. I put a link to the photo in the post. Here it is again.

https://ibb.co/cTAsA7

Do any of you sharpen s110v with sandpaper? I'm assuming systems like the WorkSharp use grit capable of cutting carbides? That may be too wishful of an assumption, lol. I realize that even if the sandpaper or belt is tearing out carbides, it'll still put a very functional edge on the knife. Just curious.

It can work, you can get it sharp, but I'd rather by vg10 and a good stone rather then s110v and sandpaper
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Bill1170
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#127

Post by Bill1170 »

A couple more thoughts:

Big working ropes can hold a lot of abrasive grit, which is very hard on edges. I can well understand sailors using a robust fixed blade to baton through hawsers. The edge needed to cut rope by batoning can be wider at the apex, and therefore correspondingly more robust/damage-resistant.

Modern synthetic ropes made with Kevlar or Dyneema are extremely hard to cut, compared with nylon, polyester, or natural fibers. Get a piece of that for your next loop test if you want a shocking experience. I don’t cut much rope in my normal life, but a few years ago I did a bunch of rigging for two large (removable) shade sails. The rope we used is 3/8” diameter with a polyester jacket over a Dyneema core. Since our cuts had to be melted anyway, I used an electric melting cutter for most cuts. Cutting a few by knife was eye opening. By the way, this 3/8” rope was rated at 11,500 pounds breaking strength, which is close to the tensile limit of 3/8” stainless steel wire rope.
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#128

Post by mjdragonfly »

clovehitch wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:59 pm
I don't need any more sharpening supplies, I was just curious as to whether or not it cut the carbides.

And VG-10 is completely out of the equation unless it's serrated, since I'm not satisfied with s90v or s110v's edge retention versus this rope. But a serrated endura would be a good rope cutting knife.
ZDP-189 should show better edge retention than S110V from what I have read so far but not by a lot certainly nothing to write home about. If you want to make a substantial jump then you will need to buy a knife with either a blade made of Maxamet or Rex121. Both of these are tough and verging on the hardness of Tungsten. See the link below for a comparative test between Maxamet and Rex121 by Michael Christy.

https://youtu.be/aBMqiZLuez8&t=904s
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#129

Post by mjdragonfly »

Sal has said the H1 is the ultimate choice for a SE knife as the alloy work hardens in use.
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me2
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#130

Post by me2 »

Honestly I'm not impressed with S110V. It is just a bit behind other steels I've tested in terms of sharpness right off the stones, and just even in edge holding with them in direct comparisons. Likely these are related.

I may have missed it, but what sharpening angle are you using for rope cutting? One of the reasons serrations work so well is they have a low edge angle. My old Salt 1 was around 14 to 16 degrees inclusive. Try lowering your edge angle and see if that helps, while waiting for Maxamet.
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emanuel
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#131

Post by emanuel »

mjdragonfly wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 pm
Sal has said the H1 is the ultimate choice for a SE knife as the alloy work hardens in use.
He said that years ago, before LC200N and Vanax SC hit the market. H1 is massively outclassed by both those two steels.

As a side note, as long as there are no impurities of other more reactive steels transfered on the surface of s110v in order to provide a corrosion point, even this steel could handle salt water like the two above, with lowered edge retention due to the apex corroding faster than vanax or lc until hitting a stable thickness of a few microns, effect expecially visible if you have a mirror polished, perfect edge. In this case, you would want a tooty edge as the shape of the "teeth" is generally a bit rounded and that shape itself helps with keeping the steel covered uniformly in a layer or chromium oxyde at the cutting point, while a fine edge will be thin enough for the oxygen to corode it from 3 directions, leaving it as a flat countinous blunt line. A polished edge with a corroded apex of a few microns thick is not that great of a cutter, it cant even rip its way through things..

Interesting thread, it was a pleasure to read it. I love my polished japanese kitchen knives, but I got to say when it comes to utility and effective cutting, I cannot steer away from a well ground toothy edge. It just slices how I want it too slice, while a polished edge sometimes just doesnt bite the same
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Re: Sharpening S110V

#132

Post by mjdragonfly »

emanuel wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:13 am
mjdragonfly wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 pm
Sal has said the H1 is the ultimate choice for a SE knife as the alloy work hardens in use.
He said that years ago, before LC200N and Vanax SC hit the market. H1 is massively outclassed by both those two steels.

Hey thanks for this update regarding SE steel, that is good to know. Not sure if I want a SE knife or not but they sure do a stellar job at what they do and make an amazing utility or rescue/emergency knife.
Calgary on the Bow
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