Sharpening S110V

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Canazes9
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:35 pm

Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:11 pm
G'day clovehitch, :)

The refined edge versus the coarse edge debate rages here from time to time and we ultimately agree to disagree. :rolleyes:

Somethings just don't change. A couple of things being, a super refined edge won't cut rope and it won't cut through fish bones. ;)

A few of the brothers here have stated they can achieve a hair whittling edge off the medium stones using a SharpMaker. I didn't doubt them but I've never had to whittle hair and thought nothing of it.

As it goes I've been playing with my SharpMaker a fair bit over the last week or so and out of boredom and a little curiosity the other night after dinner, I took a little German made paring knife of some sort of 440 Stainless flavour I'd guess fairly easily to hair whittling off the medium stones. Now I'm not saying I can do the same with S110V and I haven't tried but what I can say is, in my time playing with knives this would have to be the ultimate edge for my requirements at least.
My highly polished edges cut rope great, honestly can't answer on the fish bones as I'm an electric knife guy when it's time to filet my catch.

Maybe I'm using the wrong rope - what rope are you finding polished edges won't cut?

David

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Bloke
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Bloke » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:14 pm

Canazes9 wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:35 pm
My highly polished edges cut rope great, honestly can't answer on the fish bones as I'm an electric knife guy when it's time to filet my catch.

Maybe I'm using the wrong rope - what rope are you finding polished edges won't cut?

David
I've found difficulty in cutting any of the synthetics and natural fibre ropes with a refined edge.

A prime example would be after I took HAP40 to hair whittling off UF stones on the SM not long after I joined the forum and contacted the member here who explained how to do it to brag about my sharpening ability. Ah, hahaha!

He challenged me to bend some rope into a loop put the knife in the loop and try to cut out. So I did and it certainly didn't cut anything like a coarse edge does. In fact it slid a lot like a blunt blade would.
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

Canazes9
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:18 pm

Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:14 pm
Canazes9 wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:35 pm
My highly polished edges cut rope great, honestly can't answer on the fish bones as I'm an electric knife guy when it's time to filet my catch.

Maybe I'm using the wrong rope - what rope are you finding polished edges won't cut?

David
I've found difficulty in cutting any of the synthetics and natural fibre ropes with a refined edge.

A prime example would be after I took HAP40 to hair whittling off UF stones on the SM not long after I joined the forum and contacted the member here who explained how to do it to brag about my sharpening ability. Ah, hahaha!

He challenged me to bend some rope into a loop put the knife in the loop and try to cut out. So I did and it certainly didn't cut anything like a coarse edge does. In fact it slid a lot like a blunt blade would.
Polypropylene? Nylon? Size?

Can't say that I've tried cutting a loop as described, usually cutting to length on some wood backing. Going to try some rope tomorrow, appreciate the input.

David

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Bloke
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Bloke » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:35 pm

Canazes9 wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:18 pm
Polypropylene? Nylon? Size?

Can't say that I've tried cutting a loop as described, usually cutting to length on some wood backing. Going to try some rope tomorrow, appreciate the input.

David
You're welcome! :)

I don't think it matters diameter wise. You could try poly, nylon, sisal, manila ... It's all pretty much a muchness.
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Bloke » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:04 am

clovehitch wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:50 pm
Lol, so it's a sensitive subject? :)

Regarding rope, a toothy edge certainly outperforms a highly polished edge. I don't think anyone will debate that. I've already stated that in my experience a toothy edge excels at slicing, and that is exactly how rope is cut. With a background in commercial fishing and dredging, I've cut my fair share of polypropylene and marine grade lines. In my current job, I occasionally have to cut 4" thick marine grade synthetic (similar to nylon but tougher, not sure what it is) line. You won't believe how hard it is to cut until you try it. But saying a highly refined edge "won't cut rope"? That's simply not true. Same with fish bones. I've cleaned more fish than I could ever imagine to count, and yes, a toothy edge will outperform a highly polished edge. The initial bite and saw-like slicing ability are definitely preferred. However, a highly polished edge will cut most fish bones quite well. It will certainly have trouble if you're trying to cut the bones of a 70lb striper. In most fish cleaning, cutting bones isn't necessary though (I was slightly confused by the reference), and I've found that a highly polished edge performs well at skinning the fillets also.

I'm sure you could do the same with s110v. You're obviously a good sharpener.
Ah, hahaha! Brother, if you saw me with a knife in hand and a stone on a bench you'd think again, unless I was sharpening a wide beveled Scandi and even then I sharpen one side better than the other. :eek:

I reckon l can get a knife as sharp as I want with a guided system or a SharpMaker if all the planets aligned and I was holding my mouth right ... maybe not that bad. Ah, hahaha! ;)

All jokes aside I think we agree and no doubt I should have worded my post a little better.

I think what I was trying to say is that a coarse edge serves me (personally) better than a highly refined edge having tried both. I certainly didn't intend to come across as an edge Guru because quite simply I'm not. :o

I've learned more here about 'The Edge' in my short time here than decades of trial and error. I was the Polished Edge Kid when I joined the forum but not anymore. Early in the piece, I'm fairly sure it was our good friend Darby (bearfacedkiller) who replied to one of my posts with words to the effect that some of us erroneously chase 'sharp' through edge refinement. I pricked my ears and took it onboard, learned Jim (Ankerson) replied to another post that I didn't need diamonds to sharpen S110V, brother Lance (Surfingringo) walked me through my first hair whittling edge, brother Vivi show us all how he sharpens with the SharpMaker simply sitting on a bench unrestrained ... ! I hope you get my drift.

I've cleaned a few fish too over the years and I cut through bones because I'm fairly hopeless at filleting too. :)

Anyhow, I sit very comfortably in the coarse sharp edge tree because it works for me and at the end of the day all that matters is we're all happy.

I do miss my polished edges though but only because now I need to carry a bloody mirror to touch up my make up! :rolleyes:
Last edited by Bloke on Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Sjucaveman » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:30 am

clovehitch wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:53 am
I hear you. I have some polished edges, and some toothy. Got one of each on me right now. Night shift almost over thank goodness.
Working nightshift myself, carrying 4 spydies myself. Can never have enough.
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:28 am

I reckon the answer to most all of these refined vs. coarse debates is “it depends”....mostly on what you’re cutting. My experience is that both have their strong points but I find that a coarser edge works better at almost all of the chores that I normally perform. My other observation is that when a refined edge excels it offers minimal advantage over a very sharp coarse edge but in jobs where a coarse edge excels, the performance difference can be huge. Given all that, I typically carry my folders with a nice toothy 1200 grit finish that is still extremely sharp and will push cut nearly as well as a polished edge. I find that to be a nice balance for most of my cutting tasks.

Regarding fish cleaning, it’s another one of those “it depends” scenarios. Among other things I t depends on your cleaning technique and type of fish you are cleaning. For a heavy scaled fish like Snapper, I MUCH prefer a coarse edge. The first cut behind the gill has to go through the scales. Neither coarse nor refined edge is actually going to cut through those heavy scales. What a coarse edge does well is grip the scales and rip them out of the way in the first sawing motion where a more refined edge will slide across them. There are ways around it but I’d rather adapt my edge choice to my cleaning technique, not my cleaning technique to my edge choice. On the other hand, if I knew I would only be cleaning soft skinned, scale-less fish like Mackerel I would choose a more refined edge because I love the way it glides through the meat when removing fillets. So yeah, “it depends”...final answer. :rolleyes: :p


P.S. interestingly enough, I am carrying my new lil sub hilt right now and it currently has a polished edge that will break or whittle free hanging hairs on contact (I was bored). I will probably carry it that way until I am presented with some task at which that polished edge flounders and I will bring it back to 1200 and carry on. Sometimes I have to do things to remind myself why I don’t do them all the time. Golf comes to mind.

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:22 pm

Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:28 am
I reckon the answer to most all of these refined vs. coarse debates is “it depends”....
Isn't that the truth :)

I don't think I'll ever lose my love of highly refined edges... There's just something about them and the way they cut that does it for me I guess. But they are not ideal for every job.

I'm starting to come around to JD's and others way of thinking about Spyder Edges. I'm gonna do a thread on the sharpmaker UF rods and SE H1 soon. A nice mirror polished Spyder Edge gives you the best of both worlds.... A highly refined yet still toothy edge.
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:14 pm
He challenged me to bend some rope into a loop put the knife in the loop and try to cut out. So I did and it certainly didn't cut anything like a coarse edge does. In fact it slid a lot like a blunt blade would.
I'm not seeing it, welcome clarification from you or any other poster.

When I first got my S110V knives I had some difficulty getting them to sharpen. They would shave, but....

Then I was recommended diamond stones, which I used and found them to be highly effective - much more effective than my previous efforts. I became a big proponent of diamond stones and toothy edges for S110V. I still think diamonds are necessary for restoring the edge on a dull/dullish S110V knife, just not the final step.

I have since learned how to achieve a high polish edge on S110V. A push cut phone book paper, whittle hairs polished edge. I have found the highly polished edge lasts longer at a high degree of sharpness than the toothy edges. Still, the talk of the polished edges inadequacy for things like rope circulate.

So I bought some rope today. Pardon my rather poor videography skills, but I'm still not getting the knock on polished edges. Knife is a S110V PM2.

https://youtu.be/OvWGkgxEj9g

Not sure if I'm embedding video properly, here's a link if I messed that up...

https://youtu.be/OvWGkgxEj9g

David
Last edited by Canazes9 on Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bloke
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Bloke » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Canazes9 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:23 pm
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:14 pm
He challenged me to bend some rope into a loop put the knife in the loop and try to cut out. So I did and it certainly didn't cut anything like a coarse edge does. In fact it slid a lot like a blunt blade would.
I'm not seeing it, welcome clarification from you or any other poster.

When I first got my S110V knives I had some difficulty getting them to sharpen. They would shave, but....

Then I was recommended diamond stones, which I used and found them to be highly effective - much more effective than my previous efforts. I became a big proponent of diamond stones and toothy edges for S110V. I still think diamonds are necessary for restoring the edge on a dull/dullish S110V knife, just not the final step.

I have since learned how to achieve a high polish edge on S110V. A push cut phone book paper, whittle hairs polished edge. I have found the highly polished edge lasts longer at a high degree of sharpness than the toothy edges. Still, the talk of the polished edges inadequacy for things like rope circulate.

So I bought some rope today. Pardon my rather poor videography skills, but I'm still not getting the knock on polished edges. Knife is a S110V PM2.



Not sure if I'm embedding video properly, here's a link if I messed that up...

https://youtu.be/OvWGkgxEj9g

David
Brother, I stand corrected!

This has not been my experience with hair whittling edges off UF Spyderco stones on synthetic or natural fibre ropes.

I can only think the actual edge may not be as refined as the polished bevel but I have NO IDEA. Perhaps I should go back to the drawing board.

Many thanks for posting the clip it certainly is an eye opener.
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

Canazes9
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:00 pm

Bloke wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Brother, I stand corrected!

This has not been my experience with hair whittling edges off UF Spyderco stones on synthetic or natural fibre ropes.

I can only think the actual edge may not be as refined as the polished bevel but I have NO IDEA. Perhaps I should go back to the drawing board.

Many thanks for posting the clip it certainly is an eye opener.
For clarification, I used an Edge Pro w/ 2300 & 4,000 grit stones, followed by 6,000 grit polish tapes to achieve that edge. It has been restored at least once with knives plus white, then green strop - I usually can strop them back at least 3 or 4 times before I have to break out the Edge Pro again.

I have used a Sharpmaker before (a friend at the hunting camp has one) and it seemed to work well, but I had all this other stuff already by then...

David

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:28 pm

Hey clovehitch, I’ve tried what you’re talking about, as have a few others around here. 325 diamond finish with just a few very light strokes on the microbevel with the UF ceramics. The results are impressive. The problem is, you can only sharpen like this once (maybe twice) before you have polished out your scratch pattern and have to go back to the coarse stone. It does make for a nice edge though if done properly. I’m not sure it offers any real performance advantages over a 1200 grit diamond finish, but it’s fun to play with. Go for it.

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:32 pm

Canazes9 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:23 pm
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:14 pm
He challenged me to bend some rope into a loop put the knife in the loop and try to cut out. So I did and it certainly didn't cut anything like a coarse edge does. In fact it slid a lot like a blunt blade would.
I'm not seeing it, welcome clarification from you or any other poster.

When I first got my S110V knives I had some difficulty getting them to sharpen. They would shave, but....

Then I was recommended diamond stones, which I used and found them to be highly effective - much more effective than my previous efforts. I became a big proponent of diamond stones and toothy edges for S110V. I still think diamonds are necessary for restoring the edge on a dull/dullish S110V knife, just not the final step.

I have since learned how to achieve a high polish edge on S110V. A push cut phone book paper, whittle hairs polished edge. I have found the highly polished edge lasts longer at a high degree of sharpness than the toothy edges. Still, the talk of the polished edges inadequacy for things like rope circulate.

So I bought some rope today. Pardon my rather poor videography skills, but I'm still not getting the knock on polished edges. Knife is a S110V PM2.

https://youtu.be/OvWGkgxEj9g

Not sure if I'm embedding video properly, here's a link if I messed that up...

https://youtu.be/OvWGkgxEj9g

David
Hi canazes, you’re not really going to see much performance difference on a push cut like that. If you want to get a real feel for the difference take a few feet of hard 5/8” polypropylene rope and make a couple dozen cuts through it on a cutting board with each type of edge. Slicing/sawing cuts. There is a vast performance difference that will become very obvious immediately.

Canazes9
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:39 pm

Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:32 pm

Hi canazes, you’re not really going to see much performance difference on a push cut like that. If you want to get a real feel for the difference take a few feet of hard 5/8” polypropylene rope and make a couple dozen cuts through it on a cutting board with each type of edge. Slicing/sawing cuts. There is a vast performance difference that will become very obvious immediately.
Surfingringo,

Appreciate the input. I have done quite a bit of the suggested cutting with smaller diameter rope and found the polished edge lasts longer and works as well or better. I'll buy some bigger rope and give it a shot soon. Guess I'm going to have to mess up the polished edge on my S110V Military so I have something toothy for comparison...

David

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:55 pm

Canazes9 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:39 pm
Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:32 pm

Hi canazes, you’re not really going to see much performance difference on a push cut like that. If you want to get a real feel for the difference take a few feet of hard 5/8” polypropylene rope and make a couple dozen cuts through it on a cutting board with each type of edge. Slicing/sawing cuts. There is a vast performance difference that will become very obvious immediately.
Surfingringo,

Appreciate the input. I have done quite a bit of the suggested cutting with smaller diameter rope and found the polished edge lasts longer and works as well or better. I'll buy some bigger rope and give it a shot soon. Guess I'm going to have to mess up the polished edge on my S110V Military so I have something toothy for comparison...

David
Good on ya for being a good scientist Canazes. :) It’s always easier to believe what we’ve already got in our minds but I find a little experimenting to confirm (or refute) my beliefs is usually time well spent. I’m no hater of polished edges but once I saw the performance difference I became a believer in the efficiency of a sharp coarse edge. I bet you’re going to have your own “oh wow” moment if you keep looking. :spyder:

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Deadboxhero » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm

David,
I'm a polished guy like you, I like the finesse but it's not the best edge for everything.
If we could spend a day cutting fish with Lance the polished edges would loss their bite faster.

Polished is push cutting, toothy is draw cutting.
If you're forcing the edge straight down in the rope then the polish works better. If you draw cutting then the teeth on the toothy help.
Polish is cutting quality
Toothy is cutting quantity

We want the blend of the two

Polished toothy is the goal not a 200 grit toothy edge or a 20,000 polished grit one but a 600-1000 grit with finished with strops to refine the teeth without removing them "polished toothy"

Look up Dave Martell, coined the phrase.

Some need a little more tooth in the polish, some more polish in the toothy.

It's job specific but a blend of the two is best. Except for straight razors, thats all polish.



In the real world, the objective is to find the best blend between the two for the given application and we select the the abrasives that gives us the right combos. That's why I have so many **** stones.


Here's an example,
That polished edge won't last long if you were cleaning fish with Lance. But you would get cleaner cuts on portioning boneless fillets (with the right geometry of course too.)

So it's task specific, Now add different steels, abrasives, heat treatments and geometries and find the endless combinations that synergize performance. That's why knives are great. It's never ending.

That's the obsession of it. The "Idèe Fixe"
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:58 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm
David,
I'm a polished guy like you, I like the finesse but it's not the best edge for everything.
If we could spend a day cutting fish with Lance the polished edges would loss their bite faster.

Polished is push cutting, toothy is draw cutting.
If you're forcing the edge straight down in the rope then the polish works better. If you draw cutting then the teeth on the toothy help.
Polish is cutting quality
Toothy is cutting quantity

We want the blend of the two

Polished toothy is the goal not a 200 grit toothy edge or a 20,000 polished grit one but a 600-1000 grit with finished with strops to refine the teeth without removing them "polished toothy"

Look up Dave Martell, coined the phrase.

Some need a little more tooth in the polish, some more polish in the toothy.

It's job specific but a blend of the two is best. Except for straight razors, thats all polish.



In the real world, the objective is to find the best blend between the two for the given application and we select the the abrasives that gives us the right combos. That's why I have so many **** stones.


Here's an example,
That polished edge won't last long if you were cleaning fish with Lance. But you would get cleaner cuts on portioning boneless fillets (with the right geometry of course too.)

So it's task specific, Now add different steels, abrasives, heat treatments and geometries and find the endless combinations that synergize performance. That's why knives are great. It's never ending.

That's the obsession of it. The "Idèe Fixe"
Quoted for truth. Post of the year nominee. ^ :spyder:

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:36 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm
David,
I'm a polished guy like you, I like the finesse but it's not the best edge for everything.
If we could spend a day cutting fish with Lance the polished edges would loss their bite faster.

Polished is push cutting, toothy is draw cutting.
If you're forcing the edge straight down in the rope then the polish works better. If you draw cutting then the teeth on the toothy help.
Polish is cutting quality
Toothy is cutting quantity

We want the blend of the two

Polished toothy is the goal not a 200 grit toothy edge or a 20,000 polished grit one but a 600-1000 grit with finished with strops to refine the teeth without removing them "polished toothy"

Look up Dave Martell, coined the phrase.

Some need a little more tooth in the polish, some more polish in the toothy.

It's job specific but a blend of the two is best. Except for straight razors, thats all polish.



In the real world, the objective is to find the best blend between the two for the given application and we select the the abrasives that gives us the right combos. That's why I have so many **** stones.


Here's an example,
That polished edge won't last long if you were cleaning fish with Lance. But you would get cleaner cuts on portioning boneless fillets (with the right geometry of course too.)

So it's task specific, Now add different steels, abrasives, heat treatments and geometries and find the endless combinations that synergize performance. That's why knives are great. It's never ending.

That's the obsession of it. The "Idèe Fixe"
I have heard all of that before - not finding it to be true in my real world testing.

Someone cited an example where a polished edge was inferior to a toothy edge and I tested according to what was described. In that test, the polished edge performed exceptionally well. If you look carefully at that video, you will see that the first cut in each type of rope was an attempt at a draw cut and the second attempt was a pure push cut. Not going to deny that the push cut was cleaner on both rope types, nor will I deny that the draw cut in this test was at best a modified push cut. What is amusing is that there was no comment when the initial example was cited and now that there is a video showing a polished edge doesn't slide out of the cut like a dull knife folks are jumping up to say that wasn't the right test.

I asked, this was what was described to me to try, I tried it - the polished edge worked very well. Lance cited another possible test, I'll try that as well.

The toothy edge may perform better initially, but I don't believe the toothy edges will last as long. My previous comparisons showed the toothy edges to work better in some media, but they never lasted longer than a polished edge. Personally, I think that folks are not achieving as finally refined an edge as they thought they were, then blaming the polished edge for the lack of performance. That was the case for me in my initial testing. Side note: according to Edge Pro, their 3,000 grit polish tapes are equivalent to 25,000 grit Japanese water stones, 3 microns. They don't list an equivalent for their 6,000 grit polish tapes but they are obviously more refined. I cannot verify these the equivalency statement of the 3,000 grit tapes, merely conveying information as given.

I will happily try Lance's 5/8" poly rope for a couple dozen cuts on a cutting board with each edge type, if for no other reason than curiosity. In the real world, I'm not trying to find a balance - I'm trying to find what works best for my needs. So far, that looks like a highly polished edge and a high carbide steel with excellent edge holding capability. I will conduct the testing and post a video, regardless of the results and try to learn something in the process.

David

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm

Try to challenge yourself to get shaving sharpness off your coarser stones.

If you use a light touch and consistent angle you can get shaving sharpness and even tree topping sharpness at 200-400 grit. Tom Kreins edges were the first experience I had with these edges, and it opened my eyes to how sharp toothy edges can be.

Aim for clean shaving sharpness right off the stone. No strop, no UF stone at a steeper angle, just a coarse but well formed edge. It'll slice for ages.

Take the same care with your XX Coarse diamond stone as you do with your highest grit. That toothy edge will laat a very long time even on low carbon low carbide steels like AUS8, 420J, and things like Ti and H1.
Last edited by AccountDeletedUserRequest on Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Canazes9
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Canazes9 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:53 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:52 pm
Try to challenge yourself to get shaving sharpness off your coarser stones.

If you use a light touch and consistent angle you can get shaving sharpness and even tree topping sharpness at 200-400 grit. Tom Kreins edges were the first experience I had with these edges, and it opened my eyes to how sharp toothy edges can be.

Aim for clean shaving sharpness right off the stone. No strop, no UF stone at a steeper angle, just a coarse but well formed edge. It'll slice for ages.
I've done it - it works great!

It doesn't last as long as a polished edge.

David


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