Sharpening S110V

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BigCanadian
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Sharpening S110V

Postby BigCanadian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:38 am

I've been sharpening knives on oil stones for many years (my Dad came from a commercial fishing family, and he taught me at a young age). Over the years I owned many "cheap" folders, mostly USA made Gerber, and locally manufactured (Pictou, NS) Grohmann fixed blades. A few years back, I got into 1095 CS fixed blades (TOPS, ESEE, Becker), and got much more serious with my sharpening. I invested in a couple of Arkansas hard stones, and made a two sided leather strop......one side with green "rouge" and one side with none. I had a lot of fun, sharpening to shaving sharp.

Recently, I purchased my first Spydie, a Delica4 FFG, then another Delica, and now I have a Manix II Lighweight in S110V on the way.

I can get a good edge on the Delica's VG-10 blade, but not as good as I'd like. With the Manix II LW on the way, I think it's time for me to rethink my sharpening methods, as the small FFG blades are different than I am used to, and I know that S110V is a whole different game.

Online, I've looked at the Work Sharp, Sharpmaker and Lansky Crock Stick manual systems. Is the Sharpmaker my best bet, knowing that I will touch up often, and not let my knives get too dull?

(PS - I do know not to use oil on ceramic and diamond sharpeners, as a member suggested in another thread :) )

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Ankerson
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Ankerson » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:59 am

Sharpmaker would be a wise choice.

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farnorthdan
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby farnorthdan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:07 am

my quick .02, others will jump in with great detail. My experience with S110V is that it can be maintained with the Sharpmaker, which by the way is a fantastic system. It can be re-profiled with diamond/CBN rods but its super slow going, I prefer my Edge Pro. I've found with the S110V models I have that frequent touch ups is the key.
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My Grails: Lum Tanto folder sprint, Sprint Persian(red), Captain, Manix 2 (M4), SB MT, PM2 M390, CF dodo, Manix2 (CF S90V),Manix2 XL S90V, Zowada CF Balance Rassenti Nivarna, Lil' Nilakka, Tuff, Police 4, Chinook 4, Caly HAP40 52100 Military, S110V Military, Any/All PM2 & Military sprints/exclusives I can get my grubby hands on :) :spyder: :) :spyder: :)

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abbazaba
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby abbazaba » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:17 am

Sharpmaker. Keeping S110v sharp isn't too bad if you do touch ups often, and the Sharpmaker is perfect for this. Your Delica will probably also benefit greatly from using the SM. Like they say, watch the video!

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ejames13
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby ejames13 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:28 am

I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the large amount of vanadium carbides in steels like S110v make the ceramic rods of the Sharpmaker a poor choice for sharpening. While you may be able to maintain the edge to an extent, you are really only abrading the surrounding steel matrix, while the vanadium carbides are just being burnished. In order to get the most crisp edge possible, you should really use diamonds or CBN from start to finish.

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Johnnie1801
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Johnnie1801 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:34 am

I would recommend purchasing some type of diamond stone, they make life far easier when it comes to these type of steels.
Currently enjoying Spyderco's in - S30V, VG10, Super Blue, Cruwear x4, CTS XHP, S110V x2, M4 x3, S35VN, CTS 204P x2, S90V, HAP 40, K390, RWL34, MAXAMET, ZDP 189, REX 45


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Ankerson
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Ankerson » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 am

You don't NEED diamonds to sharpen S110V or any steel.

I have sharpened almost all of them over the years and NEVER used diamonds.

A good high quality Silicon Carbide Stone will work for reprofiling and then a Sharpmaker will take care of the rest.

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby mattman » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:52 am

ejames13 wrote:I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the large amount of vanadium carbides in steels like S110v make the ceramic rods of the Sharpmaker a poor choice for sharpening. While you may be able to maintain the edge to an extent, you are really only abrading the surrounding steel matrix, while the vanadium carbides are just being burnished. In order to get the most crisp edge possible, you should really use diamonds or CBN from start to finish.
I'm not sure this is accurate...?
It's my understanding that the ceramics are significantly harder than the carbides.. ?
I'm just going from memory, though... I could be wrong.

BigCanadian
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby BigCanadian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 pm

Ankerson wrote:You don't NEED diamonds to sharpen S110V or any steel.

I have sharpened almost all of them over the years and NEVER used diamonds.

A good high quality Silicon Carbide Stone will work for reprofiling and then a Sharpmaker will take care of the rest.
I have a stout 1095 CS becker for heavy use, so I can't imagine having to reprofile the Manix II.

If reprofiling S110V is required, what grit SCS stone would you suggest?

Please note that I have two combination water stones, #400/#1000 and #2000/#5000, and lots of time.

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Ankerson
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Ankerson » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:12 pm

BigCanadian wrote:
Ankerson wrote:You don't NEED diamonds to sharpen S110V or any steel.

I have sharpened almost all of them over the years and NEVER used diamonds.

A good high quality Silicon Carbide Stone will work for reprofiling and then a Sharpmaker will take care of the rest.
I have a stout 1095 CS becker for heavy use, so I can't imagine having to reprofile the Manix II.

If reprofiling S110V is required, what grit SCS stone would you suggest?

Please note that I have two combination water stones, #400/#1000 and #2000/#5000, and lots of time.
A good Quality Norton Medium or Coarse will work fine.

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ejames13
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby ejames13 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:05 pm

mattman wrote:
ejames13 wrote:I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the large amount of vanadium carbides in steels like S110v make the ceramic rods of the Sharpmaker a poor choice for sharpening. While you may be able to maintain the edge to an extent, you are really only abrading the surrounding steel matrix, while the vanadium carbides are just being burnished. In order to get the most crisp edge possible, you should really use diamonds or CBN from start to finish.
I'm not sure this is accurate...?
It's my understanding that the ceramics are significantly harder than the carbides.. ?
I'm just going from memory, though... I could be wrong.
I'm sure the binder and finish for the Spyderco ceramics comes into play, but plain Alumina is 2100 Knoop, while Vanadium carbide is 2660 Knoop. So while you don't NEED diamonds, they will definitely produce a better finish on the edge since they're able to cut and shape the carbides. This is especially true at higher grits.

I don't NEED snow tires on my car to get around in New England during winter, but it's certainly a lot easier with them.

Source: https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Scien ... ystems.htm

BigCanadian
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby BigCanadian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:40 pm

ejames13 wrote:
mattman wrote:
ejames13 wrote:I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the large amount of vanadium carbides in steels like S110v make the ceramic rods of the Sharpmaker a poor choice for sharpening. While you may be able to maintain the edge to an extent, you are really only abrading the surrounding steel matrix, while the vanadium carbides are just being burnished. In order to get the most crisp edge possible, you should really use diamonds or CBN from start to finish.
I'm not sure this is accurate...?
It's my understanding that the ceramics are significantly harder than the carbides.. ?
I'm just going from memory, though... I could be wrong.
I'm sure the binder and finish for the Spyderco ceramics comes into play, but plain Alumina is 2100 Knoop, while Vanadium carbide is 2660 Knoop. So while you don't NEED diamonds, they will definitely produce a better finish on the edge since they're able to cut and shape the carbides. This is especially true at higher grits.

I don't NEED snow tires on my car to get around in New England during winter, but it's certainly a lot easier with them.

Source: https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Scien ... ystems.htm
So, ejames13, after all of that, exactly what products do you use to sharpen your S110V?

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ejames13
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby ejames13 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:00 pm

BigCanadian wrote:
ejames13 wrote:
mattman wrote:
ejames13 wrote:I’m no expert, but my understanding is that the large amount of vanadium carbides in steels like S110v make the ceramic rods of the Sharpmaker a poor choice for sharpening. While you may be able to maintain the edge to an extent, you are really only abrading the surrounding steel matrix, while the vanadium carbides are just being burnished. In order to get the most crisp edge possible, you should really use diamonds or CBN from start to finish.
I'm not sure this is accurate...?
It's my understanding that the ceramics are significantly harder than the carbides.. ?
I'm just going from memory, though... I could be wrong.
I'm sure the binder and finish for the Spyderco ceramics comes into play, but plain Alumina is 2100 Knoop, while Vanadium carbide is 2660 Knoop. So while you don't NEED diamonds, they will definitely produce a better finish on the edge since they're able to cut and shape the carbides. This is especially true at higher grits.

I don't NEED snow tires on my car to get around in New England during winter, but it's certainly a lot easier with them.

Source: https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Scien ... ystems.htm
So, ejames13, after all of that, exactly what products do you use to sharpen your S110V?
Sharpen?? I don’t even own knives!

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby me2 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:42 am

Its not like the harder carbide is unaffected by the softer abrasive. Somehow the notion that aluminum oxide just skates over harder carbides without doing anything to them gets repeated. There is an effect on both sides, just more on the softer side.

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ejames13
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby ejames13 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:10 am

me2 wrote:Its not like the harder carbide is unaffected by the softer abrasive. Somehow the notion that aluminum oxide just skates over harder carbides without doing anything to them gets repeated. There is an effect on both sides, just more on the softer side.
I don’t think anyone has said that, at least in this thread. Of course the carbides will be affected, but they will be polished more than cut.

I’m not saying the Sharpmaker won’t work, but the OP was about “the best bet” for S110v. The best bet is diamonds or CBN. Just because people have used other stuff successfully doesn’t make it the best choice.

There are microscopic images that show evidence of this in a thread over on BF. You can see the carbides sitting proud of the surrounding steel matrix when sharpened on the softer abrasive because the abrasive can’t shape them very well. Some are even torn out. I’ll see if I can find the thread.

Don W
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Don W » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:30 am

On s110v and s90v I use a Norton Crystolon medium bench stone to make a burr on the edge and then knock that burr off on a sharpmaker. It makes for a long lasting aggressive cutting edge. Sometimes I strop with leather belt to knock off burr.

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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:18 am

The Ultra-Fine stone on the 204 Sharpmaker really puts a great finished edge on S110V and M390 both :cool: But for steels in that upper tier I do recommend diamond sharpening tools for reprofiling>> Unless you've got more patience than I do :rolleyes:

I've also had some pretty good results using Benchstones ( mainly Spyderco's) that is if you're practiced up enough for doing it freehanded. There are guides you can buy for using with Benchstones that would certainly help in the finishing stage.

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Ankerson
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Ankerson » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:37 am

ejames13 wrote:
me2 wrote:Its not like the harder carbide is unaffected by the softer abrasive. Somehow the notion that aluminum oxide just skates over harder carbides without doing anything to them gets repeated. There is an effect on both sides, just more on the softer side.
I don’t think anyone has said that, at least in this thread. Of course the carbides will be affected, but they will be polished more than cut.

I’m not saying the Sharpmaker won’t work, but the OP was about “the best bet” for S110v. The best bet is diamonds or CBN. Just because people have used other stuff successfully doesn’t make it the best choice.

There are microscopic images that show evidence of this in a thread over on BF. You can see the carbides sitting proud of the surrounding steel matrix when sharpened on the softer abrasive because the abrasive can’t shape them very well. Some are even torn out. I’ll see if I can find the thread.
For normal sharpening in NORMAL grit ranges 320 to 600 grit diamonds offer zero advantages over Silicon Carbide or Ceramics when dealing with steels like S110V.

The only time they offer any advantage is when going way up in refinement around 1 Micron or higher.

Diamonds actually tear up the steel in the lower grit ranges, that's bad for sharpening as that tears up the apex.

And you can't put the pressure on the diamond stones you can on the others, another reason why Silicon Carbide is actually faster when reprofiling.
Last edited by Ankerson on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MichaelScott
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby MichaelScott » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:45 am

I wonder about the reprofiling for heavy uses. Long ago I sharpened my Buck knives on an Arkansas stone using an angle guide that clamped to the blade. I’d get a burr on one side, flip it over, get one on the obverse, then take the burr down on a fine stone. We used our knives heavily around our small farm cutting what needed to be cut and butchering a lot when that time of year came around. Eventually I wore the edge back so far on my Buck 112 that I had to retire it. Could this be a problem with heavy use knives and reprofiling? If so, might it be unavoidable and just another cost of using a knife hard? Just curious.
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Re: Sharpening S110V

Postby Ankerson » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:49 am

MichaelScott wrote:I wonder about the reprofiling for heavy uses. Long ago I sharpened my Buck knives on an Arkansas stone using an angle guide that clamped to the blade. I’d get a burr on one side, flip it over, get one on the obverse, then take the burr down on a fine stone. We used our knives heavily around our small farm cutting what needed to be cut and butchering a lot when that time of year came around. Eventually I wore the edge back so far on my Buck 112 that I had to retire it. Could this be a problem with heavy use knives and reprofiling? If so, might it be unavoidable and just another cost of using a knife hard? Just curious.
It's the amount of metal one removes when touching up, using ceramics removes very little metal.

Less is always better, removing the least amount of steel you can while sharpening, using aggressive stones when touching up removes more steel.

I use ceramics to deal with touchups, only takes a few passes and done.


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