Taking apart knives

[timlara]

+1 on the idea for some sort of "factory seal" that's easy for dealers / customers to identify.

Obviously, Spyderco has its own secret "in-house" ways for knowing when a knife was disassembled, but the problem with that is it doesn't protect the dealers or the consumers.

Seems like some sort of obvious external seal would be a win for everybody, albeit with a hopefully small cost increase to implement.

[MichaelScott]

Spyderco would need to change their existing warranty policy which now states that if a reassembled knife's operation isn’t compromised it may still be considered a warranty return. Might be a problem otherwise since someone could disassemble, cause an issue, reassemble (damaged sticker now), return and claim it was reassembled correctly. Same problem as exists now.

I would think that the only workable solution that includes the sticker idea would be to consider any knife with a missing or damaged sticker out of warranty. I don’t know if that is a good business solution but a bad customer satisfaction action. Something Spyderco would have to judge.

[jpm2]

All the sticker is for is to keep the dealer from issuing a refund, nothing to do with warranty.
If a knife is returned without the sticker intact, no refund from the dealer, period.
If it's a warranty issue, it goes to the manufacturer to decide, same as now.

[sal]

I wonder what the ratio of knive that have been disassembled vs those that have been damaged in doing so.

Not possible to tell. If the knife was disassembled, There is usually something damaged or we wouldn't be able to tell it's been taken apart. If we can't tell, then there should be no problem.

sal

[BravoTango]

I'd just like to preface what I'm about to say: regardless if spyderco decides to stick with current policies on disassembly or not will not effect my loyalty to the company, simply put I love Spyderco products. they're the only knives I buy at this point.

I build and operate AR15s as a hobby and participate in shooting sports and hunting. I torque things to foot pounds and in some cases inch pounds, these rifles have an operating pressure of approx 50,000PSI, give or take 5,000PSI in either direction depending on the caliber, projectile and powder charge. I reload my own ammunition across multiple calibers. very precises work that can have dangerous consequences if care is not observed at all times. Understanding exactly how things work is one of my biggest passions in life.

Some guys just drive cars, or just shoot guns, or just cut things with knives, I am simply not one of those guys.

I have taken apart practically every spyderco I own, to both clean and understand them. I've never seen a problem with a lock mechanism, a pivot, a lock face on a blade tang, or a washer system. I've never had threads strip on a screw, but I have had the torx face on bolts begin to fail/strip.

I said it in another thread but I'm going to say it again here, a recommendation for product wide CQI: hardened screws. soft screw heads are not a tasteful way to dissuade the customer base from disassembly (if that is indeed the case, which I doubt because I think Spyderco is a class act.) I feel remedying the current state of spyderco screws would eliminate a large portion of the complaints i've seen voiced here on the forum during my (albeit brief) time here. I've never complained myself because I understand that it's the risk taken going forward with disassembly, and I'm not complaining here, just trying to be constructive and offer feedback.

Best,

[Daveho]

I wonder what the ratio of knive that have been disassembled vs those that have been damaged in doing so.

Not possible to tell. If the knife was disassembled, There is usually something damaged or we wouldn't be able to tell it's been taken apart. If we can't tell, then there should be no problem.

sal

That’s a good attitude to have IMHO.

[mattman]

I said it in another thread but I'm going to say it again here, a recommendation for product wide CQI: hardened screws. soft screw heads are not a tasteful way to dissuade the customer base from disassembly (if that is indeed the case, which I doubt because I think Spyderco is a class act.) I feel remedying the current state of spyderco screws would eliminate a large portion of the complaints i've seen voiced here on the forum during my (albeit brief) time here. I've never complained myself because I understand that it's the risk taken going forward with disassembly, and I'm not complaining here, just trying to be constructive and offer feedback.

Best,

I have thought about this myself a bit, recently, and my guess is that they are deliberately somewhat softer than the material they screw into, so in the event something does happen to the threads, it happens to the somewhat easier to replace screw, rather than the liner. Hardened screws would create a bunch of foot-stomping about "stripped liners" as well...

[Eee]

Reading this thread has been rather an emotional journey.

A classic opener from Sal, explaining the problem and doing what Spyderco does best, listening to customers. Sure enough, the customers spoke.

Then it all took a bit of a downturn as it seemed to me that a few members were telling others that they were wrong to hold opinions. I find this disappointing as it’s actually good for Spyderco to to hear what the customers think (which is why they encourage it), so while members might feel they are protecting the company, if they are stopping that feedback it is actually damaging.

Fortunately we seem to have realised that anyone who is willing to plough through 10 plus pages of debate probably cares about the same things and want Spyderco to be a success. So bridges were built and we seem to be getting somewhere.

I’m seeing 4 themes:
- Agreement that anyone who dismantles a knife and returns it as new is morally wrong
- The impact of the policy is far greater for overseas customers, to the extent that it may start to influence their willingness to buy Spyderco Knives. Spyderco have always spotted trends early (e.g. Slip-its), but greater customs controls (see Canada) seems to be creating an issue which may need creative solutions when it comes to returns.
- People aren’t using the distributor network to return knives and as an outsider the distributor network seems disfunctional. The perception is that it increases costs and time and blocks access to the products we want.
- Every thread I’ve seen wanting spare parts has specifically asked if they could be bought (paid for) as it was likely to be cheaper and less risky than shipping a knife.

I’ve been wondering if the distributors could play a greater part in this issue, but I’m not actually clear what they do. I feel another thread coming on...

[AlwaysTomboy]

I'm confused. I was commenting in regard to the user sending in a previously disassembled knife for warranty work. I think the repair should be done, but not for free. Spyderco deserves some kickback for fixing a knife that is technically no longer under warranty, and if this is widely known, it will prevent many cases of arguably pointless or unnecessary disassembly.

This is already the process per Spyderco's Warranty and Repair page.

If the problem with a returned product is determined to be caused by reasons other than a defect in manufacture, materials, or workmanship, Spyderco, Inc. will determine whether the product can be repaired and provide a free estimate of the repair service cost. Upon authorization and receipt of payment for the repair and return shipping of the product, we will perform the repair.

The original post in this thread isn't referring to folks sending their knives directly to Spyderco for repairs, I don't think, but to folks who disassemble their knives and then return them to the dealer and it's the dealer returning them to Spyderco.

Every month we get back hundreds of knives that have been returned to dealers. These knives have been played with, taken apart, re-assembled and then returned to the dealer as "new" for a refund. Dealers will just put them back on the shelf to send to some other poor customers that believes he's getting a new knife. It isn't a new knife; it has been taken apart and put back together by an amateur. Most (95%) of the time a knife is taken apart by an amateur it is not put back together properly so the new customer gets screwed by the previous customer.

Now we have the dealers return the knives to us so as to prevent this from happening. We then have to QC the knives a 2nd time and generally 2nd them. This is an expensive time taker and a loss to our company which has to be put into the costs of doing business which raises the costs of the products.

[AlexRus]

Why not just support your products and sell internal parts?

The current process causes out of pocket expense to the end user and this attitude of “users can’t possibly be trusted to use a T8 driver” comes across as sanctimonious, those who use these tools cone from many backgrounds and to assume that none of them could possibly assemble a knife is pretty poor form.

It’s perfectly reasonable to protect your income from people who break stuff then try and claim warranty but for those of us who would simply like to pay for a pair of washers surely you could put some process in place to support your customers who have supported the spyderco brand for so many years?

I know some people who consider themselves good with tools and mechanics. Believe me, they are terrible. They strip everything, the head of the bolt, the threads. They over tighten. They force the wrong bit into the bolt and so on. One of my good friends literally damages anything he touches with a tool. He still thinks he is Mr fixit...LOL.

I am not saying you can't reassemble a knife, but I can only imagine what Spyderco sees in the return pile. They have the policy for a reason.

On a side note does any manufacturer as large as Spyderco send out parts to customers?

Benchmade sends out parts to customers,
Zero Tolerance sends out parts to customers,
Kershaw sends out parts to customers,
CRKT sends out parts to customers.
They all send out parts for free.

[MichaelScott]

“Son of Parts Zombie Returns Again”
As two long topic threads have thoroughly discussed, this is not as simple a notion as it may appear. I won’t reiterate the multitude of reasons for that, but only state that the topic has been deeply plowed and I am sure the Spyderco team is and has been discussing it. I suspect we will eventually hear what is decided. Spyderco pays attention to its end line user family so I don’t think this will just quietly go away.

[Archimedes]

Why not just support your products and sell internal parts?

The current process causes out of pocket expense to the end user and this attitude of “users can’t possibly be trusted to use a T8 driver” comes across as sanctimonious, those who use these tools cone from many backgrounds and to assume that none of them could possibly assemble a knife is pretty poor form.

It’s perfectly reasonable to protect your income from people who break stuff then try and claim warranty but for those of us who would simply like to pay for a pair of washers surely you could put some process in place to support your customers who have supported the spyderco brand for so many years?

I know some people who consider themselves good with tools and mechanics. Believe me, they are terrible. They strip everything, the head of the bolt, the threads. They over tighten. They force the wrong bit into the bolt and so on. One of my good friends literally damages anything he touches with a tool. He still thinks he is Mr fixit...LOL.

I am not saying you can't reassemble a knife, but I can only imagine what Spyderco sees in the return pile. They have the policy for a reason.

On a side note does any manufacturer as large as Spyderco send out parts to customers?

Benchmade sends out parts to customers,
Zero Tolerance sends out parts to customers,
Kershaw sends out parts to customers,
CRKT sends out parts to customers.
They all send out parts for free.

So if I called one of these companies and said I need two new handles and all the hardware they would send it for free? What if I needed a new blade? How liberal are they? You just call them and they send whatever? No questions asked?

[jpm2]

So if I called one of these companies and said I need two new handles and all the hardware they would send it for free? What if I needed a new blade? How liberal are they? You just call them and they send whatever? No questions asked?

No one I know sends blades or handles. You send the knife to them, they replace those parts if available, you pay for them.
We're mostly talking about clips, screws, pins, spacers, etc.

[AlexRus]

So if I called one of these companies and said I need two new handles and all the hardware they would send it for free? What if I needed a new blade? How liberal are they? You just call them and they send whatever? No questions asked?

No one I know sends blades or handles. You send the knife to them, they replace those parts if available, you pay for them.
We're mostly talking about clips, screws, pins, spacers, etc.

Yup. They only ship small hardware like clips, washers, pins, barrels, standoffs, screws, thumb studs, etc.
But they DO ship them. Free of charge... Shipping and handling is also free... All over the world...

[jpm2]

So if I called one of these companies and said I need two new handles and all the hardware they would send it for free? What if I needed a new blade? How liberal are they? You just call them and they send whatever? No questions asked?

No one I know sends blades or handles. You send the knife to them, they replace those parts if available, you pay for them.
We're mostly talking about clips, screws, pins, spacers, etc.

Yup. They only ship small hardware like clips, washers, pins, barrels, standoffs, screws, thumb studs, etc.
But they DO ship them. Free of charge... Shipping and handling is also free... All over the world...

Right. Speaking only for myself though, I'm willing to pay for anything I receive, and only talking about parts already available, nothing more than they already have on hand and would repair your knife with if sent in to them.

As for the original topic, don't be dishonest by tampering with a new knife and return it to the dealer for a refund.

[Archimedes]

So if I called one of these companies and said I need two new handles and all the hardware they would send it for free? What if I needed a new blade? How liberal are they? You just call them and they send whatever? No questions asked?

No one I know sends blades or handles. You send the knife to them, they replace those parts if available, you pay for them.
We're mostly talking about clips, screws, pins, spacers, etc.

Yup. They only ship small hardware like clips, washers, pins, barrels, standoffs, screws, thumb studs, etc.
But they DO ship them. Free of charge... Shipping and handling is also free... All over the world...

Nothing is free. So this service is built into the cost of the knives. When you buy one of these knives you are paying the cost of this free parts and shipping program. Maybe Spyderco should add $10 dollars to the cost of every knife and provide "Free" parts. Personally since I have never needed any free parts from Spyderco after owning hundreds of knives from them I would prefer to keep costs down on the initial purchase and let the tinkerers pay for the lost or damaged parts. Just my .2 cents!

[MichaelScott]

If I take my knives apart and screw up I am responsible for fixing it, sourcing my own parts or sending it in for repair. I can’t see why Spyderco should be responsible for helping me fix my issues for free. And I don’t want to pay a sur-charge so that others can get small parts.

[ugaarguy]

So if I called one of these companies and said I need two new handles and all the hardware they would send it for free? What if I needed a new blade? How liberal are they? You just call them and they send whatever? No questions asked?

ZT will send everything but handles*, blades, and lock bar inserts / insert screws. If you send the knife in ZT will replace a broken blade for $30. IIRC it's $15 or $20 for a replacement blade on a Kershsaw.

*The first gen ZT 0560 had some issues with the 3D machined Ti lock side frame. I read reports that ZT sent updated lock frame sides to several customers.

If I take my knives apart and screw up I am responsible for fixing it, sourcing my own parts or sending it in for repair. I can’t see why Spyderco should be responsible for helping me fix my issues for free. And I don’t want to pay a sur-charge so that others can get small parts.

How is that Benchmade can send out small parts but sell the 550-1 and 551-1 Griptilians with 20CV blades for less money than the S30V Shaman?

How is it that ZT can send out small parts, and make 0562 in the USA with Elmax or S35VN blades while Spyderco was selling the Domino with S30V blade for the same price, but making them in Taiwan? Lets not forget that the 0562 has a unique to it deep carry clip and clip mounting mounting system, while the Domino uses an off the shelf three screw clip.

We could also compare the US made ZT 0801TI to the Taiwanese made Sage 2 for the same price. How does ZT make the 0801TI with hardened steel lock bar face insert, and thicker Ti scales with more complex contout machining than the smaller, flat scaled Sage 2? Plus the 0801 TI has additional machining for the KVT bearing races while the Sage 2 is on simple bronze washers.

I have a ZT 0562CF (slight premium for 204P and solid CF, not G10 with a CF overlay) and a Spyderco Dice. Comparing the two, the 0562 is better fit and finished than the Dice. I still want a red and black CF overlay Domino before they're gone. I also want one of the remaining base 0562 G10 with Elmax blade before they're gone. I like certain design elements like the finger choil and the blade hole on the Dice and Domino, but I'm under no illusion that ZT is a much better value when USA manufacturing, superior fit and finish, and (if needed) warranty and small parts are factored in.

Now, tell me again about that small parts surcharge.

Spyderco got my last two major knife purchases in the form of that Dice and a Spydiechef. But, Michael Scott, your attitude, and the similar attitude of others here, of condescension towards anyone who simply asks why Spyderco can't offer the same level of support as their competitors is really turning me off to Spyderco as a brand.

[Archimedes]

All I said was nothing is free. How do other companies sell knives cheaper and still send out small parts? I don't know.

People on this forum who do not represent Spyderco should not influence you one way or another. Spyderco has loyal fans. That seems like a good thing to me.

The owner of the company went on his forum and started the conversation. Now you might leave the brand because you don't like the conversation. All I said is I don't want to pay more for something I have never used after owning hundreds of knives. I did not see you being called any bad names. I thought it was quite civil. I think your input is good, yet condescending...lol! :D

Maybe someone should start a poll asking how often in the last 20 years you needed free parts for knives? This might answer is it a small vocal minority that needs these parts or is it really a major problem. Once again my opinion is, I have never needed free parts after owning hundreds of Spyderco's and hundreds of other knives from other makers and I don't want to pay more for it. I really don't think that is condescending.

[MichaelScott]

I don’t know why some other makers sell their knives more cheaply than Spyderco. It is possible, probable really, that they cost less to make. Materials, labor, support — those would be the major factors. Perhaps they use chiefly common off-the-shelf parts for all knives so it is easier to stock a large number of limited parts.

I am certain there are factual and economic reasons to explain your comparisons and objections. I don’t know them however. Your claim that your other knives cost less but are better than your Spydercos is your opinion. Maybe, maybe not.

You end with “But, Michael Scott, your attitude, and the similar attitude of others here, of condescension towards anyone who simply asks why Spyderco can't offer the same level of support as their competitors is really turning me off to Spyderco as a brand.”

I am not condescending. I, and others, merely pointed out why your notions may not be as simple or feasible as you think. I do call out opinion versus fact and put forward arguments based on evidence and reason. I welcome this kind of discussion. If you have solid arguments based on fact and evidence then put them forward. Your opinions are also welcome by me but I take them for what they are, not as fact. Falling back on what borders as a personal insult doesn’t do much to support your assertions.

If the fact that I don’t agree with you about this issue is enough to threaten to “leave the brand” I’d say that is too bad and hope that you reconsider.