Taking apart knives

[Bloke]

the 'home mechanics' are blowing hot air :)

Nice knife Larry! :cool:

I've disassembled two Spydercos. An older S30V DigiCam Military with the black anodised spacer and a ZDP-189 Stretch because neither felt 'right'. On re assembly both knives are much more betterer, if not perfect. :)

As it went they didn't need any hot air blown on them.

[Gsg9]

Spyderco opened the floodgates when stating that users can disassembly their knives without voiding warranty and stopped putting red-loctite

Probably did that under pressure from know-everything expert knife reviewers that shake hands a lot who were complaining about this

Bad idea :D

AFAIK Chris Reeve Knives (actually Anne Reeve Knives :D :D ) encourages you to open and clean them, but CRK has fewer models, Sebenza's are simpler also with tighter tolerances and users buying a 450$ knife are probably more knife educated and less prone to screw them up

And still I presume CRK gets back for warranty knifes that were messed up by customers and putting them back takes time and costs

But there is a point that expert know-everything knife reviewers are missing (you wouldn't expect that :) ) : in that price CRK leaves a lot of room taking into account this sort of situations/extra warranty costs, so it's actually the end-user that pays for this commodity of taking knives apart within warranty limits

Spyderco can't actually control what users are doing with their tiny little hands to their knives when disassembling and putting them back and sending them back to dealers for refunds

Dealers are not experts and won't hire and spend time checking if knives have been correctly put back, it's an extra cost for them

In the end Spyderco has either to absorb these costs (with some *****ing about it from Sal)

Or if not willing to absorb these extra costs I presume has two options:

- will have to come back to the old warranty/no disassembly rules

or

- make users pay for this disassembly "feature" to cover the extra costs, raising the prices, like...again :D

Tough choices :D , either one will be unpopular

Does the fact that Sal is complaining here about costs suggest the last option :D ?

[remnar]

First let me say that I do not understand the problem with disassembling knives. This is rarely a problem unless there is something preventing the screws from coming loose. If we’re going to be honest, then we should at least admit that the problem is not really the disassembly but it is instead the reassembly. I have fiddled with enough knives to know that it can be tricky to get them back together correctly without losing or damaging the small parts. For this reason, I am advocating that if you do take your knife apart, then you should absolutely not attempt to put it back together. This will prevent you from having a damaged or incorrectly assembled knife in your pocket and it will alert the dealers and Spyderco that the knife has been taken apart when they receive your box full of pieces in the mail. I know that boxes like that have arrived at Spyderco in the past and it saves them a ton of time and work investigating whether or not the owner had previously disassembled the knife. It would also help dealers determine if they should just restock the knife and give a full refund or possibly go another route. This probably wouldn’t mean that there’s a zero percent chance of getting one of those knives when you make a purchase but it would decrease the odds, maybe.

I know what you’re thinking; but what good is the knife if I don’t reassemble it? Well, there are actually some advantages to having a knife that is disassembled. First, you can lose all of that bulky weight contained in the scales, liners and fasteners. The only important part is the blade and it will still cut. Second, now that the handle is out of the way, there is no need to flick the knife open. The blade will always be free of the handle for quicker deployment. Fourth, you won’t need to invest as much money in Pelican cases because your knives, or should I say blades, will take up much less room.

In all seriousness though:

Anyone that disassembles or uses a knife and then returns it as new for a refund is dishonest and a criminal. This is different than taking a knife apart and discovering a flaw that should be covered under warranty. In the latter case the user should follow company procedures for making a warranty claim. Unfortunately, these procedures can be burdensome and/or expensive for customers in some countries. Consumers should consider this before making purchases and I hope Spyderco is looking for ways to make claims in these countries less burdensome so that they can retain those customers. :) :spyder:

Rant over, time to sleep...

[curlyhairedboy]

I don't get it and it seems fairly irresponsible to me to promote the disassembly of products the manufacturer doesn't intend to be taken apart to every random dude (or lady) who comes across your channel. Respectably, of course, but that's my $0.02.

I hear what you're saying, but from my perspective, when I didn't have these videos, people regularly asked for them, and people are going to do it anyways, once they manage to dunk their knife in a silty creek or their kid spills Apple Juice into their nice bearing action. So, as is the way with most things in life, I think it's better to show how to do it safely and without hurting anything, then to say "just don't do it" and expect people to listen.

Also, for what it's worth, I object to the idea that these simple tools should be "not intended to be taken apart". In my opinion, a knife that cannot be stripped and maintained by a skilled user without damage is a lesser tool compared to one that can be. Sure, you can probably make it work OK without completely stripping it down, but why wouldn't you buy a tool that's more robust and serviceable if given the choice. Again, what do I know, just some random jack-person, but I do truly believe that ease of and ability to service a tool is part of what makes it great, and is a wonderful feature that modern knives have to offer over traditional pinned construction.

From my own perspective, I 100% agree that a skilled user should be able to maintain his or her own tools. Even then, I've seen those who prefer to do so once a week to remove pocket lint. A sandy creek bath is one thing, but I think we could delineate what type of maintenance "requires" disassembly. A soapy rinse, blow dry, and a few drops of lube are going to work just fine - unless you're chasing the best 'action'...but I already had a post devoted to that :p



The issue seems to be knives being returned in bad shape - either visibly used, damaged, etc.

This is an ethics issue, and I'm glad that the consensus is "don't do it". Clearly, a lot of ELU don't have Spyderco's definition of INTEGRITY.

[anycal]

There were some mentions of not understanding the necessity of taking taking tools apart; taking knives apart. And that's OK. It is not for everyone. Not everyone can, or wants to, or has time to do it. But I ask you be more open minded in this regard.

Some of us, a small minority perhaps, do this. We do fix our power tools, our iPhones, our cars, our houses. We modify, customize, improve. Should we dictate how Spyderco runs its business. Of course not. But we do exist, and we do take knives apart. Sorry, but it comes up frequently - I don't have a need for it, so I don't see why it is necessary. I am sure all of us do some things that are not necessary for function but do them because they serve some purpose, real or perceived.

I know people like me are not the problem. So what does a company like Spyderco do with bad actors who don't follow the rules, who cheat the system, who lack common sense, and chip away at their bottom line? I don't know. But I did buy a new :spyder: yesterday. So another knife sold that Spyderco doesn't have to worry about...

[Nate]

Disassembling a knife and then returning it is unethical. In this day and age of customer service most people expect a no questions asked return policy and not much else. Sadly that it what good CS has devolved into for many. Unfortunately many feel entitled and will rationalize this behavior. In my opinion it is theft. I am not sure how to address this as the big retailers are going to continue with their no questions asked return policies.

As far as dissassembling goes I do not understand why it is neccesary. I do it and will admit to it but I will never say it is a neccesity. I don't rebuild ratchets, circular saws and other tools I have. I disassemble my knives because I like to tinker. I find it odd when folks say it is unquestionably needed. I field dressed a deer with a Swiss Army Knife over twenty years ago and all it got was a wash in the kitchen sink and it is still working just fine to this day. I also have other pinned slipjoints that I have had for twenty plus years that work great without ever being disassembled. They have seen a lot of use as they were from before I became a knife hoarder. If someone wants to make a case that they should be able to take a knife apart because it is theirs and they want to I can see that but the claim that it is somehow imperative to the longevity and proper functioning of the knife I am not buying it. Many, many old slipjoints as old as 100 years old are still chugging along just fine. We need to acknowledge that for many many years nobody took their knives apart and that the obsession with disassembly is a modern thing.

My man!
Nothing can convince me that disassembling a knife is for any other reason than because it's possible! If the knife doesn't work the way you feel it should, alert the manufacturer, saying you will try to break it in first, and if that doesn't solve the issue it will go back for warranty service/replacement. I have long felt it is counterproductive to solve issues yourself, and it would be beneficial for everybody if people sent the knife in with a detailed description of the issue! I have high quality angle grinders and other power tools that can be disassembled, but i don't since i have no business doing so, so judging a tool by the disassemblybility is well.. IMO a poor argument.
This knife below is from the late 1800's and still "walk and talk" so the way i see it, either knives of old days were better built, OR the 'home mechanics' are blowing hot air :)

Just wanted to "like" these posts. Good to know others view the maintenance disassembly issue similarly.

It's pretty easy to say things like "Spyderco should allow disassembly," or "Spyderco should sell parts," or "Spyderco shouldn't raise prices" when you don't need to consider any other perspective than you own, when you don't need to consider all the facts and relevant information before reaching a conclusion, and you don't have any skin in the game on the actual costs and consequences of the resolution you're sure is "right"...

[ZrowsN1s]

I've taken apart my share of knives. I did a handle swap on my Yo2 recently and was pleased with the results. I will probably take others apart in the future.
While I do not expect Spyderco to fix it for free if I screw it up... If I lose a part like a washer while doing it, I'd love if they could just sell me a new one and mail it to me, as I can replace a washer on my own.
It's not that simple though. Given all the resons Sal mentioned in his first post here, this would increase the number of returns, which means Spyderco has to spend more resources dealing with said returns.

So the question here is this... Am I willing to pay more for every new Spyderco I buy, so they can support the minority of us elu's who want take our knives apart, and mail parts to those that want to do their own repair work?

I ask because given how much people freaked out over the recent MAP increases (5-20$ depending on the model), I think many would vote to keep costs down and keep the current repair policy.

[Nate]

There were some mentions of not understanding the necessity of taking taking tools apart; taking knives apart. And that's OK. It is not for everyone. Not everyone can, or wants to, or has time to do it. But I ask you be more open minded in this regard...

Speaking for myself, I don't think what you described is the issue. My issue is with promoting disassembly as normal or necessary for "regular" maintenance (it isn't, imo), and then with the person who fools with the knife and returns it as still new and/or botches the job, then balks and cries foul when Spyderco can tell and asks for a nominal repair fee.

[Evil D]

I really wonder how we all survived back when it was Case and Buck 110's. I had never even thought of taking a knife apart until I joined this forum. I am a tinkerer and I mod a lot of my knives but it isn't necessary, it's a desire. Even pinned knives can be thoroughly cleaned if you know what you're doing.

[MichaelScott]

Lots of assumptions being tossed around here. Few facts.
It’s your business whether you take your knife apart or not. Some people are experienced enough to do it right. Some are not. Spyderco is not responsible for your screw ups. You are. Spyderco is not obligated to enable your screw ups by selling you new parts. You are ethically obligated to not pass off your screwed up knife as new and profit thereby.

The problem isn’t whether a knife’s owner is prohibited from doing whatever he or she wants to that knife, it is when that person then acts unethically or illegally to profit that the problem is created.

Sure, there are many who can work on a Spyderco knife as well as the Spyderco techs themselves, but these policies are necessary because of the harm caused by those who can’t yet still want what they want. I’d think Spyderco will gain in the long run if those few move on to tinkering with other companies products.

[Ankerson]

I really wonder how we all survived back when it was Case and Buck 110's. I had never even thought of taking a knife apart until I joined this forum. I am a tinkerer and I mod a lot of my knives but it isn't necessary, it's a desire. Even pinned knives can be thoroughly cleaned if you know what you're doing.

Yeah really, Buck 110's and all those slip joints.

The only folders I have taken apart have been CRK and 2 Cold Steels. The CRK's was to clean them for resale and the Cold Steels for repair.

[anycal]

How did we survive with flip phones. Sure, they made calls, but wouldn't work too good posting on here.

Times change, technology changes. Things 'improve', for better or for worse.

I was recently asked to help with an old Case knife. It was ceased shut. Had to use pliers to get it to open. Yes, I was able to bring it back from the dead, but no doubt it would have been easier if I could take it apart.

Edit: work in progress

[Stuman]

I’ve bought one or 2 Spydercos and the screws where the tool fits in were stripped or partly stripped but thankfully I didn’t send them back but from what I’m hearing here is that your telling me that I probably have been sold disassembled knives ? I didn’t send them back to the retailer because of 2 reasons. 1: on one of my pm2s it was quite bad and after pointing this out I was told that it’s probobly been done by Spyderco and 2: I never actually considered that I ways getting a second hand knives because the wrapping seemed intact. I’ve now sent the retailer a nasty letter and it’s a real nasty one demanding either they pay for the repairs or send me new replacement knives. The ordasity and slippery bas@#&*ds. I can see now how this effects Spydercos image and productivity. I reviewed this earlier on but after it hit me I blew a fuse with the anger that hit me. All that money I’ve spent over the years. Still I do not think that proprietary screws and or riverts or softer screws or even red loctite is the awnser. Spyderco will lose a very high percentage of there customer base if the go through with that . They should look at what other companies are doing about this and may be go from there but I will stop buying Spydercos if I can’t even adjust my pivot screw. Sending my knives back to the states from the U.K. is a very expensive game on average it costs between $50 and $150 and that’s before Spyderco have even looked at them and paying that type of money to get the pivot screw adjustments is just ridiculous so certainly I would stop buying Spyderco knives if that was the case.

[Evil D]

How did we survive with flip phones. Sure, they made calls, but wouldn't work too good posting on here.

Times change, technology changes. Things 'improve', for better or for worse.

I was recently asked to help with an old Case knife. It was ceased shut. Had to use pliers to get it to open. Yes, I was able to bring it back from the dead, but no doubt it would have been easier if I could take it apart.

So that knife was neglected. If you leave a Para 2 out in the rain long enough it'll rust shut like that too. My point isn't about advancement or whether it's good... I WANT my knives to come apart. I'm just saying it isn't necessary. It definitely makes things easier, but easier doesn't mean necessary. A knife like a Para 2 or most Spyderco are made in such a way that running water will clean out the majority of crud in them and things like sand will come out if you loosen the pivot a bit.

I don't mean to sound like I'm against taking them apart because that's not what I'm saying at all, I would be very unhappy if I couldn't, I just don't believe it's necessary like some people claim. I enjoy greasing my pivots and polishing tangs and such but I also have a Native LW that's pinned and has never been apart and I've been using it since 2005. I also believe most of the reasons people use to argue for disassembly as a necessity for maintenance can be avoided with some routine care. By comparison a pillar construction knife is a LOT easier to clean than a Buck 110.

[Ankerson]

I am sincerely sorry Sal and this has obviously been a very frequent problem the last years.

YouTube, Forums and online social networks have promoted the disassembling, modifying and tinkering of knives and the new aftermarket parts (scales, clips, standoffs...) are now more popular than ever before.

I am hesitant to touch my SPydies' guts unless there's a real problem and I am sure I know how to address it. :eek:
Other knives and brands I also trust to give me a usable and properly fit knife when I buy it,
and I am angry that the prices rise because of this, :mad:

there is a reason for Warranty and Repair services from reputable brands such as Spyderco,
and in the end most problems the ELUs complain about are in one way originated by the customers themselves (washers cupping, loctite, detent and lockup...)

IMO you're doing well and are being so lenient and stand-up guys, it's the community that needs to stick to policies and warranties and settle their heads a bit (for the most part, not everyone of course) considering other perspectives and points of view before saying things that once out of their mouth stop being theirs :spyder:

YT really hasn't done many any real favores when it comes to those things and it's not just the knife industry either. It's done much more damage than good over the years.

In the tech forms most of the complete disaster posts start out with.... I saw this Video on YT.... :rolleyes:

You just know it's going to be bad. :rolleyes:

[curlyhairedboy]

Curious as to the reaction in the spyder world to stuff like CRKT's field strip folders? Stuff like that on the market helps in creating an expectation of disassembly.

[MichaelScott]

I went looking. I found a YouTube video of an obvious amateur with hand tools taking his new from the box Lil' Lum apart for “new knife maintenance”. When he removed a screw he just tossed it aside on his work surface. The lanyard tube gave him problems so he grabbed what may have been some kind of reamer (he didn’t explain or show what this tool was) and laboriously jammed and finally pried it loose. It was painful to watch. His "maintenance" consisted of cleaning the blade pivot area with an alcohol patch which showed no dirt or debris, then applying some kind of goop from a tube to that area and the washers. Didn’t say what the goop was either. He managed to reassemble the knife. It opens and closes so, success!

How many new knife owners will this video encourage to take apart their knives for no logical reason? That doesn’t really matter if they don’t then turn to the manufacturer for free repairs or cheap parts.

[Larry_Mott]

Curious as to the reaction in the spyder world to stuff like CRKT's field strip folders? Stuff like that on the market helps in creating an expectation of disassembly.

I'm afraid that expectation / delusion is already a fact.. I'd guess that model saves CRKT a lot of trouble, except from the ham fists who would destroy an anvil.

[anycal]

So that knife was neglected...

No disagreement there. But if I came across a ceased up PM2, I can likely take it apart, get some new washers, polish the pivot, clean up the corrosion between the liner and the G10, replace the detent ball, bring it back to like new action, and maintenance going forward will be easier. The Case? Yes, it can be restored, but not to the same level. Not with my tools and/or skills.

Is all this necessary to get it back to the intended function of the knife - cutting? No. But it may last longer, and may be worth more to someone especially if it has sentimental value.

All good, D. This discussion about taking apart knives. Discussing we are...

[ferider]

Sal, I like your policies. And people returning broken knives as new s*cks. I once dated a lady in cloth retail - and she was telling similar stories. Meaning you probably will never be able to fight this completely.

Not sure how this could be transferred technically, but an iPhone can not be returned under warranty if it has had water damage - which is detected by a specific "anti-warranty" sensor, that the support guys in your closest "Guru bar" can check. How about installing some self sticking foil somewhere that breaks when the knife is disassembled, without affecting function but voiding the warranty ? Just a thought.

I have disassembled some of my > dozen Spyderco's, for lube, "perfect" pivot torque, scale changes, etc. I wouldn't buy Spydercos if I couldn't. But that's my business and I wouldn't dream of returning such a knife as new.

Roland.