Taking apart knives

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Nate
Member
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:25 am
Location: Hurtling through space...

Re: Taking apart knives

#21

Post by Nate »

Daveho wrote: I don’t belive Sal has said why spyderco wont SELL internals?
Maybe he has and you weren't paying attention.

"Every month we get numerous customers getting on the forum and complaining publicly that we are screwing our customers. They want to have everything done the way they want it because “they have a reason”. We don’t expect them to understand all that is involved, and often they refuse to because they simply want what they want, which is often unreasonable and more costly to us than the solutions we have already put into place."

Here's a few I came up with:

-cost
-cqi improvements and other in-line production changes
-size of product line, number of models
-from many different international production facilities
-limited production life of many models
-outside chance of potential legal liability
-denied ability of Spyderco to evaluate qc issues and potential defects first-hand
:spyder:
User avatar
Archimedes
Member
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:39 pm
Location: Nor Cal

Re: Taking apart knives

#22

Post by Archimedes »

Daveho wrote:Why not just support your products and sell internal parts?

The current process causes out of pocket expense to the end user and this attitude of “users can’t possibly be trusted to use a T8 driver” comes across as sanctimonious, those who use these tools cone from many backgrounds and to assume that none of them could possibly assemble a knife is pretty poor form.

It’s perfectly reasonable to protect your income from people who break stuff then try and claim warranty but for those of us who would simply like to pay for a pair of washers surely you could put some process in place to support your customers who have supported the spyderco brand for so many years?
I know some people who consider themselves good with tools and mechanics. Believe me, they are terrible. They strip everything, the head of the bolt, the threads. They over tighten. They force the wrong bit into the bolt and so on. One of my good friends literally damages anything he touches with a tool. He still thinks he is Mr fixit...LOL.

I am not saying you can't reassemble a knife, but I can only imagine what Spyderco sees in the return pile. They have the policy for a reason.

On a side note does any manufacturer as large as Spyderco send out parts to customers?
User avatar
Larry_Mott
Member
Posts: 2584
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:00 am
Location: Helsingborg, Sweden

Re: Taking apart knives

#23

Post by Larry_Mott »

Ankerson wrote:I don't know what the answer is to this other than maybe VOID the Warranty and make it CLEAR that taking them part does VOID the WARRANRY.

RED LOCITE on all screws except the Pivot Screw.

I have never had a reason to take apart my Spyderco knives.

Could use proprietary screws, have them made so nothing fits them.

RED Loctite and Soft metal so they strip thereby making it obvious taking apart the knife was tried voiding the warranty.
RED LOCITE on all screws except the Pivot Screw. - I wouldn't mind much.

I have never had a reason to take apart my Spyderco knives. - Me neither, except for two scales swaps.

Could use proprietary screws, have them made so nothing fits them. - I feel that could be counterproductive. Like Apples Pentalobe, it took less than a month before aftermarket tools started to pop up, many of them very poor quality, so the risk of damaging screws would if anything greater sooner than less. (Just my opinion)
"Life is fragile - we should take better care of each other, and ourselves - every day!"
//Eva Mott 1941 - 2019. R.I.P.
User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 27147
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Re: Taking apart knives

#24

Post by Evil D »

Daveho wrote:Why not just support your products and sell internal parts?

The current process causes out of pocket expense to the end user and this attitude of “users can’t possibly be trusted to use a T8 driver” comes across as sanctimonious, those who use these tools cone from many backgrounds and to assume that none of them could possibly assemble a knife is pretty poor form.

It’s perfectly reasonable to protect your income from people who break stuff then try and claim warranty but for those of us who would simply like to pay for a pair of washers surely you could put some process in place to support your customers who have supported the spyderco brand for so many years?

The problem is your perspective on this issue along with mine and everyone else's is very narrow compared to what Spyderco actually sees. It's easy for a competent person to make this argument because to you or I it seems ridiculous to not be able to take apart a knife and put it back together but obviously that isn't the case or this sort of policy would not exist. Do you really think it's as simple as Sal or someone just being a prick and saying no we won't sell you any parts just for the sake of it? Especially in the face of all these complaints and arguments about the issue, but the policy still stands. The hard reality is there must be a lot of people who really aren't competent enough to use that T8 and that group is ruining it for those of us who can. There must be a constant flow of jacked up knives taken apart by people who have no business doing so or this policy wouldn't exist. It was the same with the red Loctite issue, but now they've eased up with that policy and I have no doubt that warranty claims have increased along with that decision.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
User avatar
DougC-3
Member
Posts: 3684
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Location: Southeastern USA

Re: Taking apart knives

#25

Post by DougC-3 »

It's appalling to me that so many people don't have the integrity to take the responsibility for their own actions when they disassemble a knife. If a buyer wants to take it apart, fine, it's your property, nobody can stop you -- just don't expect someone to bail you out for free if you screw up. Try taking apart your car engine or wrist watch and expecting the dealer or manufacturer to straighten it out for you. I think dealers should make it clear that they won't accept returned knives that have been disassembled and then reject any return that shows signs of it. They'd be better off without customers like that anyway, along with shoplifters.

For the record, I disassembled my second Spyderco to clean out the pivot because I didn't want to give it up long enough to send it back, but when I did so, I did it against forum members' advice and took full responsibility, knowing that there would be no free warranty service afterward. Ninety odd spydies later, I haven't disassembled any others, though I do have plans to do some scale changes at some point. And I also disassembled my VW engine several times, but I never went whining to the dealer or manufacturer afterward ;)
K-390 on hand: Mule Team 17, Police 4 G-10, Endela (burlap micarta), Endela backup, Endura (canvas micarta), Straight Stretch (now blade-swapped with G-10 Stretch), Delica Wharncliffe, Dragonfly Wharncliffe, & Dragonfly Wharncliffe shorty mod
Note to self: Less is more.
User avatar
anycal
Member
Posts: 2090
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:40 pm
Location: California

Re: Taking apart knives

#26

Post by anycal »

Restocking fees to discourage returning of a knife. Obviously, no charge if there is an actual issue. Better assessment of returned knives by the dealer before they get put on a shelf - paid for by restocking fees.

I remember reading here someone saying something like, 'I buy multiple of a knife, select the perfect specimen, and send the rest back'. I am sure there are those who try to center a knife or adjust action, and when they fail they send it back. Actually both of these make me hesitant buying a 'new' knife which has been in stock for a long time. Would hate to get one of these 'new' knives.
Peter
User avatar
MichaelScott
Member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:42 am
Location: Southern Colorado

Re: Taking apart knives

#27

Post by MichaelScott »

Sal wrote: “Every month we get back hundreds of knives that have been returned to dealers. These knives have been played with, taken apart, re-assembled and then returned to the dealer as "new" for a refund. Dealers will just put them back on the shelf to send to some other poor customers that believes he's getting a new knife. It isn't a new knife; it has been taken apart and put back together by an amateur. ...

Now we have the dealers return the knives to us so as to prevent this from happening. We then have to QC the knives a 2nd time and generally 2nd them. This is an expensive time taker and a loss to our company which has to be put into the costs of doing business.”

Some responsibility should fall on the dealer to refuse a return if the knife shows evidence of no longer being new. But, I think this requirement would not be easy to enforce with some dealers.

What happens when Spyderco receives a used or damaged knife from a dealer that was accepted by that dealer as a new return? Does Spyderco reimburse the knife’s cost to the dealer? I would think not, for a used or damaged knife. If it was a true warranty issue, I would expect the dealer to be compensated.

In the latter instance Spyderco would be standing by its obligations under the warranty and would incur that cost as part of doing business and working toward better quality control or design. In the former, the ELU would have gotten two knives for the price of one even though retaining only one and either Spyderco or the dealer would be absorbing the cost of one knife.

A bag of worms.

Returns are cost items. Reducing that cost seems to be be best solution. If it is within Spyderco policy to refund (or take some action to the equivalent) the price of a returned new, undamaged knife to a dissatisfied customer, then that is part of business cost. That knife can then be legitimately sold again as new. However, if a non-new knife is returned as new for a refund the customer should either pay the cost of repairs and return shipping, or return shipping. That would still incur cost to Spyderco which they could choose to recover or not.

That would seem to remove the dealer from the loop and put the cost and responsibility on the customer if warranted. I realize some customers would complain that all this takes too long, is an inconvenience and be unwilling to pay for repairs to damage they caused, but you have to draw the line somewhere if your business is to survive and maintain its reputation for quality.

Some people won’t be satisfied regardless of what you do.
Overheard at the end of the ice age, “We’ve been having such unnatural weather.”

http://acehotel.blog

Team Innovation
Stuman
Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 2:49 pm
Location: England, United Kingdom.

Re: Taking apart knives

#28

Post by Stuman »

I don’t think red locktite and soft screws are the awnser, I think that customers need educating and that they should be a Spyderco YouTube channel and it should be put on leaflets in every Spyderco box. If you pin and glue or either one every knife then Spyderco will be inundated with an influx of knives because the people who take there knives apart and can put them back together with out trouble must number in the tens possibly hundreds of thousands and if you put soft screws or glue them in then there still going to try and unscrew them and recklessly and when they damage them and have to send them in to be sorted out, out of warranty or void warranty or wether they have to pay to get them fixed it’s not going to matter because they will send them in regardless of warranty’s not being honoured or not even if they intend to pay for it, the number will be monumental. Personally the only thing I’ve done to my Spyderco knives is tighten or loosen the pivot screw and if I deemed that they need to be totally disassembled then that is a job for the trained staff at Spyderco but there is another thing to consider here not all of us live in the states and it would be very expensive to send out knives in to be repaired so it’s a more easer cost effective option for some to try and repair there knives where they are situated. On average to send a knife to the states from where I live in the U.K. it costs between $50 and $100 and even more if want to use a courier.
Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is everyone’s god given right :)
User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 27147
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Re: Taking apart knives

#29

Post by Evil D »

I take apart every knife I buy and I will continue doing so. I also accept that if I screw something up, it's coming out of my pocket to fix it. Last issue I had was stripping the holes in my Manix 2 back spacer which cost me $25 plus to and from shipping. I've had that particular knife apart probably 50 times doing various mods to it, I eventually managed to cross thread the screws. That's life. If this isn't something you're willing to accept, then don't take stuff apart.
All SE all the time since 2017
~David
User avatar
jmh58
Member
Posts: 1967
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 7:57 pm
Location: Pgh, Pa

Re: Taking apart knives

#30

Post by jmh58 »

I built a few motorcycles and Hot Rods.. Was the Maytag man for 20 plus yrs.. :D But I AINT taken no knife apart no matter what!!! ;) John
Not all who wander are lost!!!

Of all the paths you take in life...
Make sure some of them are Dirt!!! ;)
Daveho
Member
Posts: 1260
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:19 pm

Re: Taking apart knives

#31

Post by Daveho »

jmh58 wrote:I built a few motorcycles and Hot Rods.. Was the Maytag man for 20 plus yrs.. :D But I AINT taken no knife apart no matter what!!! ;) John
Cause the dealers won’t warrant it?
User avatar
5-by-5
Member
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:12 pm
Location: Puget Sound

Re: Taking apart knives

#32

Post by 5-by-5 »

anycal wrote:Restocking fees to discourage returning of a knife. Obviously, no charge if there is an actual issue. Better assessment of returned knives by the dealer before they get put on a shelf - paid for by restocking fees.

I remember reading here someone saying something like, 'I buy multiple of a knife, select the perfect specimen, and send the rest back'. I am sure there are those who try to center a knife or adjust action, and when they fail they send it back. Actually both of these make me hesitant buying a 'new' knife which has been in stock for a long time. Would hate to get one of these 'new' knives.
Heard this too. I agree with restock fees. :spyder:
Paracelsus
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: Taking apart knives

#33

Post by Paracelsus »

Ankerson wrote:I don't know what the answer is to this other than maybe VOID the Warranty and make it CLEAR that taking them part does VOID the WARRANRY.

RED LOCITE on all screws except the Pivot Screw.

I have never had a reason to take apart my Spyderco knives.

Could use proprietary screws, have them made so nothing fits them.

RED Loctite and Soft metal so they strip thereby making it obvious taking apart the knife was tried voiding the warranty.
Please don't do any of these things.

I won't buy anything with proprietary screws, and the rest of these suggestions are just asking for more damaged knives.
When I buy a knife, I look it over carefully for problems with fit/finish/function.

Once I have disassembled, sharpened, or used a knife, it's mine.
And I disassemble, sharpen, and use all of my knives.
User avatar
SpyderPhreak
Member
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:29 am
Location: More than a mile high, CO!

Re: Taking apart knives

#34

Post by SpyderPhreak »

Sal, that’s terrible. It really is. :(

It’s ALL about integrity, which unfortunately, is disappearing in our society. I think the impersonal, faceless transaction of ordering online empowers people to do things that they would never do in person. Like sending back a knife they’ve disassembled. :rolleyes:

While this isn’t rocket science ;), we are talking about precision parts, with tolerances of 0.001” or less, and many people just don’t get that, and what it really means. It doesn’t help that some of these social media talking heads encourage the practice, with the majority of them not being all that proficient themselves. These knives aren’t tinker toys fellas...

With that said, I wish I could offer a good solution. But I can’t, and I certainly do not envy your position of having to figure out what to do about this. I have been a victim myself, just recently in fact, when the Ti Military was discontinued. I ordered one late into the closeout, and upon receipt, it was immediately clear that I was not the first recipient of the knife. Unfortunately, by that time, the vendor was completely sold out. So now I’m left dealing with the problem, which unfortunately means I’ll have to swing by and bring it in for you guys to look at it. :( Hey, at least I’ll get to visit the factory store that I drive by twice a day! :)
"Engineers don't idle well."

Thank you to our Veterans!
QUICKSILVER
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:56 pm
Location: Colorado west slope

Re: Taking apart knives

#35

Post by QUICKSILVER »

Sal, has MAP helped and was this problem part of the reason you did MAP? I suspect there was a shift from low cost sellers with easy return and then reissue to main stream knife dealers like blade HQ and Knife Center.
Bill Maier
User avatar
polyhexamethyl
Member
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:01 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Taking apart knives

#36

Post by polyhexamethyl »

i‘m ok with red locktite

proprietary screws are also okay if wera, wiha or any other reputable toolmaker sells appropriate bits for these

if there would be softer screws the moment this new policy would start i’d stop buying spyderco knives.
i and a lot of my knife loving friends live in europe and we just wouldn’t let go of a knife for a month or longer if it just needs adjusting or cleaning

i own several spydies and eventually all of them will get dis and reassembled
when they’re dirty gritty or something else is wrong with the knife
also i converted a military to metric screws by milling a new backspacer and rethreading the stop pin only the pivot still is imperial because it works just fine - i’d love a metric model :cool:
(the aluminum backspacer threads stripped)
i clean, maintain and if necessary repair almost everything i own if i am capable of doing so
and i will keep it like that - obviously everything i open up or disassemble i will keep !

just my 2 cents

best regards from austria
zhyla
Member
Posts: 2190
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Taking apart knives

#37

Post by zhyla »

Red loctite? You guys can't be serious. Reviewers would take you apart over that and rightly so.
The Meat man
Member
Posts: 5856
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Taking apart knives

#38

Post by The Meat man »

Paracelsus wrote:
Ankerson wrote:I don't know what the answer is to this other than maybe VOID the Warranty and make it CLEAR that taking them part does VOID the WARRANRY.

RED LOCITE on all screws except the Pivot Screw.

I have never had a reason to take apart my Spyderco knives.

Could use proprietary screws, have them made so nothing fits them.

RED Loctite and Soft metal so they strip thereby making it obvious taking apart the knife was tried voiding the warranty.
Please don't do any of these things.

I won't buy anything with proprietary screws, and the rest of these suggestions are just asking for more damaged knives.
When I buy a knife, I look it over carefully for problems with fit/finish/function.

Once I have disassembled, sharpened, or used a knife, it's mine.
And I disassemble, sharpen, and use all of my knives.
Agree! Don't do any of that! That would really degrade Spyderco in my mind.

Remember that 99% of Spyderco customers have absolutely no problems whatsoever with Spyderco's policy on this issue. No sense making it difficult or unpleasant for the rest of us just because of a few isolated cases.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
User avatar
Xplorer
Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:41 pm

Re: Taking apart knives

#39

Post by Xplorer »

I see two distinctly different but important issues to solve here...

1. People screw up knives when they take them apart thinking they're "good with tools" when they don't actually know how to work with a precision piece of engineering with tolerances of .0005" - .001".

Solution: Void the warranty if the knife is dis-assembled. Period. If a person wants to risk dis-assembling the knife and is capable enough to handle the adjustments successfully, good for them. People who think that their ability to dis-assemble is the same thing as the knowledge to do the work will have to live the mistake their hubris creates.

2. People unknowingly buy knives that were already returned.

Solution: Emphasize to retailers the importance of sending all returned Spyderco knives to Golden for inspection. I realize this is an expensive step but it is important to get those knives "off the street" for the sake of customer satisfaction as well as stopping Spyderco's reputation from being inappropriately attacked.

Unfortunately, there will always be those who angrily "want what they want" for "their reasons" and we can see at least 1 and possibly 2 examples of that in this thread. The last thing Spyderco should ever do is have a policy of sending out parts and encourage people to take knives apart. Any policy that encourages anyone and everyone to disassemble their knives would be a disaster.

Chad
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
User avatar
Bloke
Member
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 12:43 am
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Taking apart knives

#40

Post by Bloke »

After reading Mr Glesser's post I reckon Spyderco would probably be better off going down the IKEA track and selling knives disassembled with assembly instructions. :cool:

If you can't put it all together yourself you could get your Mrs to do it or your local dealer would do it for you at a nominal fee. ;)

If you loose any bits you can buy a bag of screws, washers, stand offs, bearings etc and go on your merry way. :)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin
Post Reply